Unlocking Mortgage Secrets: 5 Key Insights for Savvy Investors

Dylan Silver (00:00.539)
Hey folks, welcome back to the show. I’m your host Dylan Silver and today on the show we have Jon Kutsmeda , mortgage expert, 20 years experience and tech founder of LendZen.com. Jon, welcome to the show.

Jon Kutsmeda (00:13.582)
Great short little intro there, Dylan. I appreciate it thanks for having me on.

Dylan Silver (00:17.549)
Absolutely, absolutely. Before we were hopping on here, I said, you know, typically there’s one format for the show, but we might nerd out a little bit here, on my end at least, and get into some of the weeds about the mortgage space, which to, I’m an agent in Texas, newly licensed agent. also work with a lot of investors and I have a background as a wholesaler. I think innovation specifically in the mortgage space has seemed almost painstakingly slow.

Jon Kutsmeda (00:48.178)
And I agree a lot of that comes down to the way the industry is structured and the incumbents and how much power they have. If it’s serving you and you’re one of the most powerful in the industry, why would you want change?

Dylan Silver (01:00.837)
Yeah, mean, it’s from my vantage point and looking at Lenzend and what is offered, people have to go through all this red tape and it puts them in a position where, much like some other large purchases, it becomes, I’m just tired of shopping, let’s get this over with. And you don’t want that to be a factor. You don’t want retail fatigue to be the greatest driving factor for when you decide to pick, you know,

mortgage or a home or anything that’s this critical. And so briefly to folks who aren’t familiar with what Lenz and does what what’s what is Lenz and what makes it unique.

Jon Kutsmeda (01:43.916)
Yeah, I think I’m going to use your term there more frequently. The retail fatigue has really been at the forefront of mortgage companies and their sales strategies because what a lot of people need to understand and is really behind the basis for LensM is that mortgage rates don’t actually change. They’re not rising or falling. And this has to do with the fact that banks and lenders individually aren’t deciding what rate to offer you. It’s determined by the bond market mortgage-backed securities and what price that those

those things are trading at on a given day. And so what ends up happening is interest rates aren’t the things that are moving here, it’s the price of each individual rate. So a lot of times you hear today’s rate is seven and an eighth or six and a half.

That’s an inaccuracy. And what it’s trying to do is blend together what different banks and lenders are charging for a particular rate and kind of give people sense of what the range of what they would see if they went out shopping. And I think it’s a really huge disservice because what ends up going into it is this retail fatigue. And what people end up doing is they go out there, they’re looking for different quotes. One company might give them a six and a half. Another might give them a six and a quarter. But that’s apples to oranges. Ultimately,

need to be doing is comparing the same rate, say six and a half to six and a half on the same day and looking purely at what that loan is going to cost them with each institution. Technically today, if you wanted a three and a half percent 30 year fixed mortgage, it’s trading. Those mortgage backed securities are trading. It’s just the price at which they’re trading is so illiquid. What the consumer would need to pay out of pocket. A lot of times people refer to that as points. What is actually called discount fees.

but the cost to get that rate is so ridiculous that you’re not seeing it promoted or offered. So it’s not that interest rates aren’t three and a half percent. It’s that the cost to get that rate is so ridiculous that it’s not part of the marketing or sales narrative. what consumers actually need to realize, number one, is that all rates are centralized. They come down to what mortgage bonds are trading at today. And so everyone’s going to offer you or be able to offer you the same exact rates. You’re not shopping for rate. You’re shopping for the cost of

Jon Kutsmeda (03:56.62)
rate on a given day, same, same apples to apples. And so what Lenzen has done is we basically democratized that interest rate information from a cost perspective standpoint. So you can see all rates that are generally in the footprint of what is affordable or economical for consumers and the cost of each one of those interest rates in real time without any contact information. Most people who’ve tried to shop for a mortgage are probably used to going to a website, being promised

something on the website, like get an instant rate quote. You go through 10 or so questions and you get to the end and it’s a lead magnet, right? They want you to give them phone and email information before they give you anything. You put in your contact info, you still don’t get a rate quote and all you end up doing is getting a lot of phone calls and sales pitches. So we understood that pain point significantly. And the same way some of these websites like the Zillows of the world have democratized listing info, we’ve democratized that interest rate info.

Dylan Silver (04:42.512)
Yeah.

Jon Kutsmeda (04:56.4)
you can go through the entire shopping process, do all of your analysis, all of your comparisons, which honestly Lens-N does automatically for you anyway. But we give you all that info upfront without any contact details. There’s no bait and switch. There’s no forms you have to fill out where we can then reach out to you. think we are very confident that by creating this automation, we’ve been able to compress our margins to be able to operate in the space. So we want people to see our pricing. We want to see how much more competitive we are.

versus other companies. And I think the last couple years with the way interest rates have risen, home affordability has become such a hot topic. Consumers have gotten really, really savvy in terms of how to shop for a mortgage. The retail fatigue is still there, but I think people are now forced into a situation where they have to push through the fatigue and actually hunt for more cost-effective options because it’s the only way they can afford to buy a home. And if your lender is sponsoring a sports arena,

Dylan Silver (05:52.187)
is the only way.

Jon Kutsmeda (05:56.4)
sponsoring commercials during the Super Bowl, chances are you’re getting hosed on the mortgage because the only way they’re paying for that is basically by charging you more. On the same rate, you can get elsewhere for much less.

Dylan Silver (06:07.675)
Let’s talk about that, maybe a 101 here. for people who are maybe looking at getting their first home, right, and they’re hearing a 6.5 % is not the same as a 6.5 % at one other place because they’re paying for the fees associated with that 6.5%. In their minds, hearing this, saying, wait, I thought if 6.5 is 6.5, how is this any different? So the

The company is, the mortgage company is effectively paying one type of fee to originate this loan, which is then passed on to the consumer. Am I getting that right? Am I butching it completely?

Jon Kutsmeda (06:47.488)
No, I mean, I think it’s the premises there. So I think we can break it down a little differently and start with how the bond market works, which investors are buying into these bundles of mortgages. I think most people are somewhat familiar with that concept, either being around during the great financial crisis or watching the movie, Big Short a few times. But those mortgage bonds trade in half percent increments. So let’s say a mortgage bond is a five and a half percent or five percent or four and a half percent. What actually ends up going into

those mortgage bundles are note rates or mortgages with an agreement for an interest rate that is slightly higher than that coupon rate. So I’ll give you an example so people can visualize this. Let’s say you have anywhere between a 5.75 to somewhere around a 6 to 6.1. Very, very likely those mortgage rate loans, loans with those mortgage rates are going to go bundled into a five and a half percent coupon. And the reason is, is because there’s a company in

between the bond investors who the consumer never has any real communication or relationship with and the company collecting your payment, the servicer, they collect the spread. So the whole industry has become about spreads and servicing. So whether you have a 5.75 or five and a quarter or four and a quarter, depending on what that mortgage note rate is will dictate ultimately what bond security gets

packaged into, but it doesn’t change the fact that the servicer is only going to make a quarter percent to 75 basis points in terms of the servicing spread. So the incentives here are hugely unaligned, right? Because the mortgage companies that work in both origination and servicing, a lot of these big name mortgage banks, they don’t care how bad your decision is in terms of interest rate. Like if you overpay today to get a lower rate, it’s actually better for them because the chances of you refinancing

that rate are so much lower that they get to sit there and collect that 25 to 75 basis point servicing servicing spread so much longer. So there’s a huge misalignment of interest number one. But ultimately what it comes down to what you pay as a consumer

Dylan Silver (08:59.952)
Hmm.

Jon Kutsmeda (09:03.646)
depends on what the bond market is willing to pay at that coupon, say five and a half percent is trading at, you know, one dollar to one dollar, then any interest rate that’s going to be put into that security is going to come with a certain amount of cost. Now, as more more money flows into the bond market for any number of reasons, usually there’s some sort of crisis or risk off event that calls investors to want to have more bonds in their portfolio. More money will flow into these mortgage securities.

And that say that five and a half percent coupon is no longer trading at par, dollar for dollar, there’s now a premium rolled into it. And so a five and a half might be trading at 102 or 103. know, there’s a percentage of premium on top of that that the bond investor’s paying to get a dollar of income back. That premium is ultimately what gets passed on to the consumer. If you’re dealing with a company like Lenzend, which is really thin on operational cost and margin,

Dylan Silver (09:48.313)
Yeah.

Jon Kutsmeda (10:03.53)
or it’s what the lender puts in their pocket to fatten up their profits. That’s really what the customer is shopping around is how well does one lender versus the other navigate or use that liquidity or those rebates to make the cost of getting a loan cheaper for the borrower. And a lot of consumers here, I have to pay one point, two point, three points, whatever it is to get a loan. That can be very ambiguous language. What it really comes down to if you’re shopping for a mortgage, so I can summarize this simply for everybody.

buddy, is you need to compare same rate on the same day and only look at the cost of getting that loan because everyone’s sending the loan to the same place at the same price. It’s what that company is able to do with that price or those margins dictates what the customer is ultimately getting at the closing table.

Dylan Silver (10:51.887)
Really simple question here, Jon. When you were saying cost, that’s money down.

Jon Kutsmeda (10:56.878)
Uh, costs would be in terms of getting the mortgage. would be the, the, the fees that you would pay. So every company is going to have their operating margins. Let’s say, let’s keep it really simple with the math. Let’s say you have a hundred thousand dollar mortgage, right? And today’s par rate, meaning there’s no rebate being paid to you. And there’s no, there’s no disc or there’s no points you have to pay to get that rate. Let’s say that par rate is six and a half percent. Okay. If you go to Lenz and we might charge.

an aggregate two points between what we charge and origination and escrow fees, title insurance, everything else. All those third party fees are the same no matter where you go. But what you’re really looking at is if you take that par rate and say what lends in its two points and you go to say another company, a local bank or rocket mortgage or whatever it is, and they’re charging four or five points to close that deal, that’s the cost that people need to consider. It’s honestly just the aggregate total. Instead

Dylan Silver (11:50.725)
Yeah.

Jon Kutsmeda (11:56.762)
of getting caught like wrapped up in the language, which oftentimes is ambiguous, like, here’s a, here’s a 6.7 with no points. And it’s like, okay, well, what’s your six and a half because I already have a six and a half. Like let’s compare apples to apples. So the consumer always knows in aggregate, if one loan’s costing me 10 grand and the other loans costing me six grand, it’s a really simple equation at that point.

Dylan Silver (12:21.851)
Do you feel like Jon, I just hearing this, I’m an agent myself, new agent, I got licensed last week, but I’ve been active in real estate for a year and a half and just being around, I’ve heard these terms, But if I’m not inactive in real estate, if I’m totally new to this, that when I’m going through this process, not with a lens in, that this can be extremely confusing for some people. Is there kind of a level of this where it’s like big

Jon Kutsmeda (12:40.43)
Yeah.

Dylan Silver (12:50.807)
mortgage understands this and expects that people aren’t looking into it this granularly.

Jon Kutsmeda (12:58.306)
Look, Dylan, I love the way you’re approaching this conversation and the questions you’re bringing up because it is 100 % highlighting kind of the intellectual arbitrage that the industry has been playing for 20 years. The more ignorant and dumb they can keep people in terms of how the industry functions, it gives them the capacity to continue to exist, especially when they’re not competitive because the retail fatigue is very, very real and the confusion and the lack of understanding creates

intimidation. And so there’s this natural default to well, it’s my local bank or well, I see this company everywhere. So I must be able to trust them and they use that without a doubt to their advantage to take advantage of customers who don’t actually know. That’s why I really emphasize frequently same rate same day use an official loan estimate disclosure, no fees worksheet crap that people will put together to kind of try to make their deal look better. If you aren’t comparing same rate same day you have no

Dylan Silver (13:33.701)
Great.

Dylan Silver (13:37.54)
Exactly.

Jon Kutsmeda (13:58.16)
I can’t even tell you who’s the better dealer or the more competitive offer. And that’s one of the reasons when Zen is showing rates and all of our fees and pricing in real time. Because take for example, this week, this is one of the worst weeks ever in the history of the US bond market, especially in mortgage backed securities. Friday, the 10 year treasury was in the 3 % handle. So yeah, like 3.9, 3.8 range that the 10 year was hitting.

The 10 years now four and a half percent. It’s a 60 basis point move and four or five days. The mortgage backed securities market sold off even harder. So what that really means is the rate quotes you were getting on Friday, not only are they worthless, but they’ve been completely blown out of the water because that same interest rate you were looking at then is significantly more expensive today. And I have to reemphasize that interest rates and mortgages haven’t changed. The rates don’t move. It’s the cost of the rates that have changed.

the six and a half percent or six and a quarter, whatever you were looking at on Friday, is easily 200 to 250 basis points, if not more, more expensive today. So in a $500,000 mortgage, that same rate is now anywhere between 10 to $15,000 more expensive.

Dylan Silver (15:15.771)
Okay, wow, okay. So, backing up a bit here, Jon, you mentioned two types of ways that people can see fees. One was a loan estimate disclosure and one was not. What was the one that was not that?

Jon Kutsmeda (15:30.862)
So there’s an old form that this was pre Dodd-Frank.

that this was the 2008, 2009 era, there used to be what was called a good faith estimate and what they would ultimately use after Dodd-Frank, because the old good faith estimate got reworked, but the old good faith estimate layout was converted into what’s called a fees worksheet. And the reason regulators got rid of that old GFE is because it was notorious for lack of transparency.

2008, 2009 mortgage world loved to finance huge costs into the loan because of course back then home prices were only going to go up. so people were doing these arm loans. A lot of times they had prepayment penalties and they would just continually refinance, roll the prepayment penalty into the loan. And so that old fees worksheet did a really good job of obscuring those costs. And so it was kind of pushed away and made no longer valid as a legit

We still see that form float around all the time as an upfront way to show people, know, hey, this is what this lender is offering you. And it’s just horribly, it’s horribly unclear. It’s also unbinding. And that’s another reason why a lot of companies try to use it is because if they put forth a loan estimate, you can use what’s called a pro forma loan estimate or a loan estimate draft. And for the lender’s case, it’s less binding and

there’s less compliance issues there, but it’s still just an incredibly higher level of transparency versus any other form that the fees worksheets a popular one, but a lot of lending companies, especially banks will create their own, what looks like a spreadsheet on fancy letterhead. And it’s just a waste of time for the consumer to even look at that because there’s just no way again, you get into this apples and oranges thing where they’re not armed with enough information or experience to be able to make sense of that. But if they compare a loan estimate,

Jon Kutsmeda (17:36.336)
to a loan estimate, same rate, same day, there’s only one number they have to look at and that’s the aggregate cost. And so that’s why I emphasize that heavily.

Dylan Silver (17:47.439)
Let’s talk as far as chronologically. When people are going through this process, they submit a loan application, right? Let’s say they make enough income. I’ve heard this colloquially, you three times after your available money, three times the mortgage payment. They have good enough credit. What should be a reasonable timeframe? Is it instant with most of these other…

most of these other institutions or does it take several days for them to get a loan estimate officially back to them?

Jon Kutsmeda (18:22.892)
Yeah, I mean, I think I think that time that.

that timetable is a part of the problem because what’s the point of getting an estimate even if it’s a one day turnaround or a two day turnaround if interest rates are changing every millisecond. But generally, generally, yes, you’re going to go through some sort of process. It’s different everywhere. What lends in what we’ve done is if you go through the customization process and build your own loan scenario at the very end, we have a summary page which shows you all rates. It’s real time.

Dylan Silver (18:40.133)
Yeah.

Jon Kutsmeda (18:56.676)
slider you can use to change rate and see how the payment and cost of that rate changes. But we also show you the maximum qualified loan amount. And that’s based off of the income parameters that you’ve put in. So that’s kind of like a soft pre-qualification. So at real time, we’re giving people a sense of where they sit. If their initial goal is how much can I afford? Do we want to dive deeper into that? Should people be pursuing a pre-approval so they know exactly how much?

to the penny they can afford, which requires us to run their information through various algorithms, what we call in the industry automated underwriting systems. Fannie Mae has one called desktop underwriter. Yeah, they should be pursuing a pre-approval, but I think a lot of that creates the retail fatigue we’re talking about. And what a lot of people like to do in the industry is try to create momentum, right? Like, well, if I get somebody to apply, I pull their credit, they start uploading documents. They’re already fatigued.

right? And they don’t want to go shopping again under the impression they’re going to have to do all that heavy lifting just to kind of get a sense of whether there’s another competitive option. So I think generally upfront, they should be focused more on pricing and finding not only a trusted resource, but the most competitive options and then go into those more granular. How much can I approve to the dollar? And what we’ve also done in that regards is once we do a full pre-approval with somebody, we issue

access to and it’s on the very bottom of our homepage a pre-approval letter dashboard. So once someone’s pre-approved with us they don’t have to come back to us and request pre-approval letters that they submit with their offers which is another huge drag in the industry. You got to go to your loan officer, hey I want to submit an offer for $425,700. Okay let me get my processor to write up that you know pre-approval letter for you. Our system allows people to issue those letters up to their maximum

qualified amount instantly, the seller can then also click a link on that letter, which authenticates whether that letter is real and still active. So we’ve kind of eliminated that that whole intermediary process where the seller’s like, can I trust this buyer? I need to get on the phone with the loan officer. And it’s a bunch of subjective conversations. Bottom line is, is the letter good? And we authenticate that in a few seconds. So I think borrowers to answer your question specifically need to start with

Jon Kutsmeda (21:26.256)
with the price comparisons and you don’t need to do a full application to start doing that process. You can tell somebody, hey, give me an estimate for $400,000 at this given interest rate, assuming I have 800 plus credit. All of that’s going to change the same for everybody. If your score isn’t 800 and it’s 680, well, it’s going to have the same matrix style impact on what that interest rate costs you no matter where you go. So I think there’s

There’s two steps to the process. One is who should I be working with based on how competitive their pricing is? And then determining what my highest potential offer price could be with a full pre-approval. But in the interim, if someone’s just kicking tires and wants to know generally, can I afford this home or not? We provide that calculation instantly on LensNN. And again, we’re not collecting any contact info. There’s no need to sign up or sign in to get that insight.

Dylan Silver (22:22.555)
Wow, very interesting. Pivoting a bit here, before we hopped on, you mentioned something, I said I want to say this for the podcast. You talk about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac getting out of conservatorship. People who are applying for loans are going to hear these terms and may not be familiar. My understanding is that these are, I forget what the term is, established by Congress, but also for-profit companies.

that are overseen in some way by Congress, but you mentioned getting out of conservatorship. So I’m curious what your perspective is and how did I do explaining that?

Jon Kutsmeda (23:00.162)
No, it was good job. mean, these are what are called government sponsored enterprises or entities. And there was an implicit guarantee that very quickly became an explicit guarantee when the GFC happened in the some prime bubble burst and the government came in and bailed out these institutions. still, they still owe the government hundreds of billions of dollars. And they’re currently making the government a pretty good coupon every month in terms of the income that’s

coming in. If they took them out of conservatorship and made the risk of those entities public, you’re going to immediately see a change in interest rates. Again, interest rates don’t rise or fall. The price changes, but the risk associated with now there’s no government backstop would mean interest rates are going to get much more expensive. That’s one reason why I don’t think number one, helps the situation in the U.S. in terms of housing affordability, but I think more

More specifically is some of the actions that we are seeing that potentially are leading towards that that goal whether they achieve that goal or not because of both political will and economic impact Someone else can debate that but some of the things that they’re doing to try to shore up confidence in Fannie and Freddie is you’ve seen a really big shift away from Non-owner occupied properties or investment properties the way they’ve always done that again is not that interesting

rates are changed, it’s just they apply a risk-based or loan level price adjustment. So if your six and a half percent first time homebuyer primary residence mortgage is going to cost a thousand dollars, that investment loan might cost you five thousand dollars, right? There’s an impact to the cost of that loan or the premiums associated with it, which is really just a risk adjustment. So what they’ve done is massively increased that risk-based adjustment to the point where

doing a non-owner occupied or investment loan based on these GSA, GSE agency guidelines has become very unattractive and uneconomical. And so in a good way, what that’s created is a new secondary market that’s more private capital coming in to kind of service those loans. And what you’re actually seeing, and you’ll see this real time on lens in if you go in and price it out.

Jon Kutsmeda (25:28.11)
is this private market in a lot of cases is actually pricing better, substantially better than what you can get with a agency loan or conforming investment property loan. And a great example, as we were talking about, is the ability to do a cashflow only loan. So investors are all driven by the numbers, or they should be, right? You should be making a property investment based on whether that’s going to generate cashflow. Well,

there’s a loan called the DSCR loan, which stands for debt service coverage ratio, which is an analysis frequently used in commercial financing, but more and more so the buy and hold cashflow investors are focusing on that heavily. So as long as the property cash flows net positive, you’re approved. There’s no other income qualifications. And so it’s incredibly attractive if you’re somebody who has a really ugly tax return because your entire income is based off of cashflow.

Dylan Silver (26:25.403)
Write it off.

Jon Kutsmeda (26:27.824)
or hey, maybe you’re in the gig economy or whatever it might be, the income challenges have been real for people who aren’t W-2 basic tax return borrowers, especially for investment properties. I think the cashflow DSCR type of opportunity solves that significantly and it prices better than if someone was qualifying based on their income for a Fannie or agency style mortgage that’s for an investment property.

always have to cashflow positive. You can go negative cashflow and still get the DSCR loan. Obviously it’s riskier. So it just means the cost of that loan or the cost of a given interest rate is going to go up. But you can see that real time. If you go to Lenz and you click start, say it’s a purchase, you click purchase. The next question is going to be what’s my income profile or income type. And the last one says cashflow. If you click that, it’s immediately going to show you all available programs and the

lowest rates available for those. can click any of those program thumbnails and it’s going to ask you, do you want to customize? Which is what somebody should do who wants to get very, very specific. But if you just want to see a default scenario and see how it all lays out, you can then click the button that says, review all rates, send you right to the summary page, gives you all interest rates, all costs for those rates and the same analysis you would get if you customize. So in a few quick clicks, you can see how the DSCR loan stacks up and then whether you open up a new tab and

do one that’s, you know, conventional standard investment property, or on that same exact summary page on the bottom, you can modify your inputs and change it to a a normal style investment property right there on that page. And that will open up in a new tab. So you can do side by side comparisons, but the DSCR loan is very attractive. And a big part of why it’s making more sense today is that I think these GSEs are hoping at some point they can get out of conservatorship and reducing the

Dylan Silver (28:18.426)
Yeah.

Jon Kutsmeda (28:27.534)
risk of their portfolio is a big step.

Dylan Silver (28:30.469)
think being able to qualify when you have not just straight up W-2 income can seem like a giant hurdle. People talking about having different strategies and different creative ways to buy homes, but knowing that there is a resource for them, people can go to a Lens-N and qualify based off DSCR like you were speaking about. This is the first time that I’ve heard this, right? And I’ve had how many investors on the show

I think although it is known and people are out there, when folks are hearing it right now, it may pique their interest realizing, I didn’t realize that I could qualify through an online bank based off of my income or how much property is cash flowing, excuse me, when my income might show based on my tax return that last year it was a wash.

Jon Kutsmeda (29:25.814)
Yeah. And, and those loans are also applicable to short-term vacation rental income. That’s a different type of risk. So there’s a slight price adjustment when you are looking for a loan that you’re going to qualify for using short-term vacation rental income, but it’s still an option. And I think the best way can put it is

If you have liquidity and long-term, you you think there’s going to be the same trend in dollar weakness and inflation that we’ve seen for the last 50 years, securing not only assets that they’re going to appreciate against that, but in the meantime, pay you an income stream is a, is a no brainer strategy. And I think a lot of people have liquidity, have cashflow. And the most beautiful part about real estate is the leverage. And for

so many people who have the cash flow but not the income, excuse me, have the liquidity but not the income, haven’t been able to take advantage of the power of leverage with real estate and now they can. So anyone who’s looking to, you know, take, build a portfolio and cash flow is a core part of their analysis, now they have the leverage opportunity to finally get into the market.

Dylan Silver (30:43.631)
Jon, we are coming up on time here, although I think I could pick your brain here selfishly about all the topics in this space. We haven’t even delved as deep as we could into different ways that this could expand in the future, known as a crystal ball here, of course. Would love to have you back on here, but Jon, where can folks go to get a hold of you?

Jon Kutsmeda (31:05.602)
Yeah, Dylan, again, really great questions. I appreciate you and your audience giving me a chance to tease at them in a very granular way. I’m pretty easy to find everywhere. The handle is first name, last name. So it’s Jon Katsmeda. No H in my name. So it’s J-O-N-K-U-T as in Tango, S as in Sierra, as in Michael, E as in Echo, D as in Delta, A as in Alpha. So I’m everywhere from Twitter to YouTube to Instagram.

I probably communicate the most openly and frequently on Twitter or what is now X.

Dylan Silver (31:39.771)
Jon, thank you for coming on the show.

Jon Kutsmeda (31:42.7)
Dylan, thank you. really appreciate it.