Transform Your Career: Lessons from a Poker Player in Real Estate

Stephen S. (00:02.955)
Welcome back to the show where we interview the nation’s leading real estate entrepreneurs It’s your host Stephen Schmidt and I’m here today with Andrew Boccia He is a former professional poker player turned real estate investor and we’re gonna hop into all things money and What he’s doing in the private money space within real estate investing and his expertise. We’ll see where the conversation goes

I’m just super excited that he’s taking some time, carved that out this afternoon to talk with us. So before we do that, just remember at Investor Fuel, we help real estate investors, service providers, and real estate entrepreneurs, 2 5X their businesses, which allows them to build the businesses they’ve always wanted to allow them to live the lives they’ve always dreamed up. With that being said, Andrew, welcome to the show today.

Andrew (00:46.072)
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Stephen S. (00:47.819)
You bet man, I’m really excited to get into our topic today. let me ask you this, before we do that, can you give us a little bit of background? You’re a former professional poker player, turned real estate investor, very, very interesting history that you have traveling all over the world playing poker, online space, all that. Can you just tell us like what got you started in real estate when that transition happened? Were you still playing poker? And then how did you get to where you’re at now doing private money primarily?

Andrew (01:16.398)
Yeah, so I would have to say it started back in 2004, 2005. There was something in poker called the Moneymaker Boom. It’s when Chris Moneymaker won the World Series of Poker. He was an accountant from Tennessee. put up, he won like a $15 tournament on Poker Stars to get into the big tournament in Vegas.

And then he won that big tournament Vegas and turned it into like a million bucks or whatever from $15 and it was on TV. It was on a ESPN. So it was a pretty big story. And then poker had just come on the internet. And so, you know.

If you’re in middle school at the time or in high school, you’re thinking, wow, that seems pretty easy. I could do that too. A lot of money and kind of do what you want to do on your own time. anyway, I played in middle school and in high school, little $5 games. I’ve always been very competitive, very numbers driven.

Very competitive, played a lot of sports, played baseball, played football, but I don’t have the body for football and baseball, I can’t hit a 70 mile an hour curve, but in poker, you can use your brain. And luckily for me, with enough study, I was actually, I found out I was pretty good at it. So I just really went all in on, no pun intended, on learning poker all throughout high school. I remember I had a summer job.

Stephen S. (02:36.298)
Mm.

Andrew (02:52.944)
As a roofing contractor, know picking up shingles off of rich people’s, landscaping and then I did a summer of busing and and and I was playing poker on the side on poker stars and and I Over like a over like a long period of hands, you know was making like ten dollars an hour as a bus boy and playing poker on the internet I’m making like 20 25 dollars an hour

over an average of like the past three to six months. And I’m like making twice as much. It’s a lot of fun. And I see a path to grow a lot in that industry where I can just keep climbing up in stakes up and up and up. So pretty much an uncapped ceiling for where you can go. Kind of like real estate where you can flip one house this year, you can do 10 houses the next year, and you can buy a friggin apartment in year three. So it kind of had that same upward mobility, that same like uncapped earning ability for

for which was very attractive. So yes, I went in, I didn’t go to college. I bought a house right out of high school. So if you remember what the housing market was in 2007.

We were at the peak of the market. I got one of those crazy loans that shouldn’t have existed. So I graduated high school in 2006. I buy a house in 2007. So I have no credit. I have no cash. for capacity, for my job, I’m a professional gambler with basically no experience, like one year of experience. And so that was my loan file.

the time.

Stephen S. (04:37.877)
Right.

Andrew (04:38.874)
Somehow this thing got approved and I was in one of those arms, you know, where now I get to the closing table, I actually read the amortization schedule, right? It starts me off at seven and a quarter and I’m asking the closer, like, why does my interest rate go up to 11 %? And they just say, you know what, just refinance it, it’ll be fine, you know? I was like, all right. And I wanted the house, I signed the paperwork. I actually paid the thing off, but a lot of people didn’t. And so that’s kind of what caused a big crash.

I had tunnel vision though. I was so locked in on poker, like I wasn’t even paying attention to the real estate market.

My payment going from $1,700 a month to $2,200 a month, like I just didn’t care. It didn’t move the needle for me. I was really locked in on getting very good at poker. I played on the internet. I did a lot of studying. I actually lived with other poker players and I would rent them rooms and we would, you know, challenge each other, each other’s thoughts. We’d run simulations, all this kind of stuff.

There was a community at the time called Two Plus Two, which is kind of like the bigger pockets equivalent of online gambling. It’s where you go to learn how to be good at it. And there’s basic content there, but then there was also advanced content on Two Plus Two. So it’s basically, was the bigger pockets equivalent in the online gambling world, in the advantage gambling world.

So long story short, I bought a house in Michigan that I didn’t qualify for at all on paper. Lived there for a couple years. Then I moved to Vegas, because I figured what the heck, if you’re gonna be doing this, Vegas is a good place to live, a good place for networking. Did a couple years in Vegas and said, this lifestyle’s a little much. I moved to Miami.

Andrew (06:28.042)
In Miami, I lived in Miami in 2011 and actually the government shut down Full Tilt Poker, Poker Stars, and Absolute Poker. So you go to Pokerstars.com, there’s a big FBI badge on the screen. So they seized all three domains and basically said, hey, if you want to play poker, you can’t do it from the states any longer.

So now they basically reinterpreted like an old law on the books called the wire act. So now if you go to open up a bank statement or a bank account, you have to sign like a thing that says I’m not going to be gambling online with this bank account that didn’t exist before 2011. The DOJ kind of went in and went a little crazy. anyway, yeah.

Stephen S. (07:14.823)
Is that essentially on like every bank account? Like if you’re getting a bank account in the States and people just don’t even know it because it’s not even applicable to.

Andrew (07:20.974)
It’s just one of those disclosures you sign, you don’t think of, but this is why it’s out there. And it’s all from that 2000, 2011 reinterpretation of the wire act. Uh, essentially what happened was if you were playing poker professionally, you did one of two things. You either use the VPN to lie about your location or you’d move overseas. And, you know, I’m not really.

Stephen S. (07:24.491)
Yeah. Really?

Andrew (07:45.024)
a person that misleads and does that kind of stuff. I’m sort of by the book on most things. You know, I moved overseas. I didn’t want to play on a VPN and do all this craziness and try to get around the rules. So I moved to Thailand for a year and half to keep playing.

bought a little scooter out there. Pretty crazy lifestyle out there. Then I did about a year and a half in Budapest. And then I did a year in Malta. And so that gets me maybe six months. After that run, that was about an eight, nine year run of playing poker on the internet, I kind of decided like,

It’s not a very fulfilling thing to do for the rest of your life. The issue with poker is for you to win, someone else has to lose. It’s essentially a zero sum game. It’s actually a negative sum game because the house is taking a rake. So meaning you, Steven, have to lose a hundred dollars and someone else has to lose a hundred dollars and someone else has to lose a hundred dollars. And I don’t win 300. I might make 200 after the casino rake.

Stephen S. (09:01.707)
Mm.

Andrew (09:01.738)
So it’s just it’s kind of a negative way to live your life. Not to mention the emotional swings and the wear and tear it takes on you. You you you lose 40 grand one day and you make 50 the next you lose 20 the next you basically lose like natural thoughts. You I don’t know, you lose your natural emotions. You get very desensitized to money where, you know,

Stephen S. (09:28.053)
Hmm.

Andrew (09:30.454)
like money won’t affect you at all. Bad things will happen to you, won’t affect you. Good things will happen to you, won’t affect you. Because basically, through poker, you learn that if you are emotional, it will weaken your thought process when it goes into making a decision. And there’s an economic cost to that.

Stephen S. (09:37.929)
Why is that?

Andrew (09:54.464)
And so you have to train yourself to basically when something good happens, you don’t react in an optimistic manner. And once something bad happens, you don’t react in like a pessimistic manner. You keep the same robotic thought pattern and the same discipline that goes into each decision.

Stephen S. (10:03.104)
Right.

Stephen S. (10:10.227)
Right. Because even your opponent, like it’s like what I’ve heard in the past where it’s like you could literally get so good at reading someone else like a vein popping just slightly or a sweat trickling, you know, just like stuff like that. How true is how true are those statements?

Andrew (10:23.501)
I’m

Andrew (10:27.18)
Well, so the reading players thing is like more of movie thing and it’s more for live poker. I played on the internet, so I would play, have three, right, I’d have three screens up, 20 tables, I’d be playing with hotkeys and I’d still read people but it was pattern based. It was, hey, I’ve played 20,000 hands with the guy and he never check raises the river as a bluff. Or, you know.

Stephen S. (10:32.597)
Okay. Okay.

Stephen S. (10:37.631)
Which is more statistical, is that? Okay.

Stephen S. (10:47.445)
right.

Andrew (10:56.566)
Cut off first button, when I open, he doesn’t re-raise with small suited connectors. It’s always high card hands or whatever. it was more about pattern recognition. It wasn’t so much like how it is in Hollywood where if they do the one thing the weird way, like now you know they have a king and a jack. It was more about understanding the type of player they were and the patterns that they did. And that would sometimes influence how you play your hand.

So I did that for quite a while and it was a good run. I met a lot of good friends through poker, but I kind of, in 2014, I moved from Europe back to Florida and decided to give real estate a go. I kind of wanted to have a career with a higher ceiling. That’s the other thing. The best poker player in the world makes maybe seven figures, you know, like.

which is a good living, literally that’s like best in the world. And if you’re best in the world at real estate, you’re doing way more than that. So it has a low ceiling.

Stephen S. (11:57.204)
Right.

Stephen S. (12:03.977)
And you’re not having to take, because I think that’s what you were saying too about the fulfilling piece. Like at the end of the day, no matter what, you’re taking someone else’s livelihood if you’re a winner. And the person that always wins is the casino at the end of the day.

Andrew (12:08.662)
Yeah.

Andrew (12:14.444)
Yeah.

Andrew (12:18.03)
Yeah, well in poker, yeah, the casino has a rake in poker, but because it’s player versus player, they allow advantage gamblers. But if you’re an advantage gambler in blackjack or roulette or crap, something like that, they’re not gonna let you play. They’ll just decline your business because the house is losing. So if you’re an advantage gambler in blackjack, counting cards, the house is losing. But if you’re an advantage gambler in poker,

The house isn’t losing, the house still makes a rake. The loser is the other human person in the pot. Yeah, the fish. Yeah, we call them fish, donkeys, yeah, sucker, exactly. So.

Stephen S. (12:52.337)
sucker for for lack of a better for lack of a better the fish

of it. Wow. Man, this is fascinating. So you decided to come back. Why did you choose real estate? Was that a logical decision that you made based on statistics or what was it about real estate?

Andrew (13:10.446)
I think it had to do with my roots. So my parents were both public school teachers for their whole career, but my mom would do real estate investing like every summer. So she’d buy like a flip and we’d be out there as kids, you know, making two bucks an hour tearing out, doing demo, kind of stuff.

And we did some Habitat for Humanity projects as kids. And just growing up, like our home was always getting remodeled. So my parents, specifically my mom, invested as an income supplement on top of a teacher’s salary. Didn’t do it professionally, but managed to accumulate a couple of rentals.

on a teacher salary and do a couple of flips here and there during summer when she was off and when we were off. So I think that was probably the spark that said, hey, there’s this thing we can do to create money where you can stay self-employed. And what if I actually just do it professionally and spend all my time at doing it well? You know, what could what could the result be? And so I just kind of started

First two years I started buying houses, duplexes.

single-family homes, doing flips, making basically every mistake you can make. That’s how I learned. just learned through lots of deals, lots of action. I remember I did a ground up loan for a spec home with no experience. And I did a Dutch interest loan on my ground up house and I switched my plans twice and I switched my contractor three times. you know, so I, I took some scars in those first two years, just sort of investing on my own, but I had some wins too.

Andrew (14:56.784)
But I basically put all my poker savings in play during those first couple of years.

And then I said, you know what, I can actually do real estate for the long haul. I’m kind of enjoying this. think I’m pretty good at it. so I created a fund where other investors could invest alongside me. And that fund is called central Florida income fund and it remains open today. So we’re a reg D five six C credit investor only kind of thing. And our net to our investors has been 15 % average with some years could some years, not so good, but average of it has

Stephen S. (15:25.451)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (15:34.048)
has been about, excuse me, has been about 15%. And then we just launched fund three, which is credit only. So it’s a credit only fund where we just do private loans to other investors. So yeah, the poker thing is like the more interesting story, but the real estate I’m actually more passionate about. So, you know, figured I’d give you a little bit of both.

Stephen S. (15:54.845)
Of course. Now, what part of Florida are you in?

What part of Florida are you in?

Andrew (16:02.07)
So we’re based out of Lakeland. We bought a office building in Lakeland, Florida. So it’s halfway between Tampa and Orlando. Not everyone knows where that’s at, but yeah, Tampa is a big city. Orlando is a big city. Lakeland is about halfway in between the two. It’s kind of it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know. So, you know, we’re a…

Stephen S. (16:20.127)
Right. Over near Plant City.

Andrew (16:28.588)
two hour drive from 10 million people. So it’s kind of an interesting little area here. But I got both major MSAs that I can get to. I like the location, the cost of living’s not too high out here. But it is getting pretty hot. So, let’s start with that, yeah.

Stephen S. (16:45.963)
Yeah, I mean you say cost of living isn’t too high what you don’t know about me is I moved back to Kansas from Melbourne, Florida a couple years back because of the cost and I couldn’t stop having kids with my wife so it’s funny because we actually looked at Lakeland and then Luthe’s out there on the west west side to check out and part of the reason is just reminding me I’ve got a friend of mine still out there in the Melbourne Port St. Lucie area

Andrew (16:57.088)
Yeah, OK. Yeah.

Andrew (17:13.868)
Yeah.

Stephen S. (17:14.845)
His name is Jeff who he actually owns a vape shop but he actually is a was or still is a professional poker player and and and does real estate too. So I’m like man, what is it about a professional poker players that get into real estate? You don’t have a vape shop though, right?

Andrew (17:23.684)
cool.

Andrew (17:31.038)
No, no, I don’t think I will. yeah, but it’s interesting. There’s a lot of similarities. mean, it’s a results based business where kind of, doesn’t matter if you work 10 hours a week or a hundred hours a week, you’re, you’re compensated based on results. There’s also some luck. I hate to say it, but there’s a little bit of luck.

Stephen S. (17:34.398)
Yeah, sure.

Stephen S. (17:41.78)
Right.

Stephen S. (17:57.612)
Sliver, for sure.

Andrew (17:57.998)
In both now real poker has more luck in each hand. mean literally you’re 60 % You’re just gonna lose 40 % of time real estate is like, okay. I’m buying a flip today I have imperfect information. It might be a home run It might be a single or double and you kind of don’t know what the market will be like in eight months when you sell the thing So but yeah, it’s it’s a results based Self-employed business you’re putting a lot of capital at work. You’re trying to decide how much capital

to put at risk on any one bet or deal. So yeah, there’s a few characteristics that are similar.

Stephen S. (18:35.819)
So what, so you got the start. By the way, I wanna go back to one of the first things you said in the show because it stood out to me and we got a little off in the weeds. But when you bought your house in Michigan in 07, right before the crash basically, you mentioned you paid that house off. Was that because you were just raking in the dough with Poker? Or did they call your loan to come together or what happened there? Sure, sure.

Andrew (18:51.403)
Yeah.

Andrew (18:57.934)
Yeah, I don’t know if raking in the dough is the right way to phrase it, I mean, I think I paid like 230. And I mean, this poor neighborhood I was in, like it’s in Rochester Hills, Michigan, which is like one of the nicest cities to live in. And I mean, my neighbors, I feel so bad for them.

We basically turned that thing into a frat house. Except we didn’t go to college, so it was even worse. We were home all day, playing poker on our computers. The garage was disgusting. It was halfway filled up with pizza boxes, because no one would want to actually… We had like six feet of pizza boxes in our garage, like end to end. So you couldn’t actually pull your car into the garage. I remember I woke up one day…

Stephen S. (19:24.521)
Yeah.

Stephen S. (19:35.762)
my god.

Stephen S. (19:41.387)
That’s amazing.

Andrew (19:47.914)
We had some friends over and had a good time and there was a pizza slice upside down on my neighbor’s roof and another pizza slice upside down on my other neighbor’s swing set, like where their kids would go swinging and playing.

I’m just like, it’s just not good, man. This is a, you know, I don’t know what you say about that. mean, you you’re 19, you don’t really know what you’re doing, but yeah, not good. So, but anyway, being in an adjustable rate mortgage, the, you know, the climb from a $1,700 payment to a $1,900 payment to a $2,100 payment, like I didn’t really feel it because I was,

Stephen S. (20:06.121)
my gosh.

Stephen S. (20:18.644)
Right.

Andrew (20:34.634)
in such an aggressive capital industry, like poker, was one month I’m making 10,000 the next month I’m losing three, the next month I’m making 20. Like it was just kind of, I didn’t feel the arm going up a percent where my payment would go up a hundred bucks. Like it just wasn’t that interesting compared to how much I was earning and losing up and down my normal swings. So yeah.

Stephen S. (20:57.483)
The desensitization that you talked about to just money. It’s like, okay, that’s just what I got to play to pay. Pay to play, right?

Andrew (21:03.095)
And I was, yeah, I was doing well enough to handle the arm adjustments, but a lot of people got in trouble. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Stephen S. (21:10.377)
Yeah. And on top of that, you were renting the rooms, right? Right.

Andrew (21:16.586)
So no, didn’t, was able to actually pay the loan off. paid, I just actually just paid the arm on schedule. I believe I paid it on schedule for a couple of years and tried to do a refinance. I honestly can’t remember. But yeah, the loan was performing the whole way and I eventually sold it. Actually my first experiment as an investor, did room rentals as a poker player to other poker players. Wouldn’t recommend that.

If they had a good month, I’d get paid and if they didn’t it was rough But I moved away and I didn’t necessarily want to sell the house I was like, well, it’d be cool to own some real estate and So hired a property management company to manage the house. I remember I paid like first the I think I paid the entire first month’s Which is which was a little steep. It was like $1,800 and then and then I paid 10 %

Stephen S. (21:45.343)
Sure.

Andrew (22:14.912)
of the rent. So like the full first month rent and then 10 % which now I know better, especially in a good area. This was in a good area. So those fees are a little higher, you know, but I’m I’m I’m a client with one door. So I don’t know if I can negotiate it very much, but yeah, but they charged me entire first month’s rent and then 10 % and then the tenants beat the crap out of the house. looking back,

Stephen S. (22:24.446)
Right.

Stephen S. (22:32.071)
Not a lot of pull.

Andrew (22:43.598)
I don’t know if that was a great idea because I did rent it for a couple of years and then when I wanted to sell it, I had to like do a bunch of work remote to get a decent amount. you know, not, not a great real estate investment, more, more just a rent supplement, you know, a place to live and work out of.

Stephen S. (23:04.381)
Right a place to to learn your first your first hard lessons, right? So Let’s transition a little bit and and talk about what you’re passionate about now within private money

Andrew (23:09.006)
Yeah, exactly.

Andrew (23:16.834)
Yeah, so right now, I mean, there’s a lot of giants in private money. you’ve got the, mean, Kiavi’s obviously like dominating the industry. There’s a lot of national lenders. We’ve carved out a nice niche doing sort of loans that the big boys can do.

just quicker than them and with more certainty of execution, because I literally look at every deal by hand before we qualify it. And then, you know, so our customers know that like, it’s not going to get blown up over a technicality. New investors are going to rate shop you and shop you for points and leverage. The more seasoned guys will work in certainty of execution with cost of capital and make an educated decision. And that doesn’t mean we always win. We don’t necessarily beat.

the 100 % lenders because we don’t offer 100%. But for certain borrowers, they kind of like dealing with a private shop. They like the relationship. So we bring a little something different to the market.

But where we’ve really carved out a niche is smaller loans. There aren’t a lot of lenders that do loans under 75K. So in Arkansas and in some of these Midwest markets, or like South Carolina, you get these like…

deals where the loan amount is 70K and a lot of the national guys can’t do that. So we’ve carved out like a niche plugging that gap. The other gap we plug is like small purchase high rehab. So like 50K purchase, 80K rehab. A lot of lenders that’ll like destroy their algorithm. And if I see a guy with 800 credit and he’s got 36 rental properties, like I don’t care that the rehab is a little more in the purchase price. Like we’re just gonna fund it. And so we think that basically our strategy is

Andrew (25:05.965)
is funding common sense loans that look good, where we feel risk is mitigated, but where the big box lenders don’t have an appetite for it. So that’s kind of, and of course we can do the cookie cutter stuff and our pricing’s pretty comparable, but our niche is funding stuff that’s just outside the Wall Street box.

where we can charge a nice price premium, but then there’s still investor demand, because there aren’t a lot of competitors funding those deals. so I can, then I have a lot more, I have a lot more power, like it’s tough for me to negotiate against Kiavi on a cookie cutter deal where purchases 100, rehabs 30. You know, I gotta be at 10 and one to win that deal on a high credit borrower.

which I can do, that’s fine, but when purchase is 50 and rehab 70 and it’s in South Carolina, there aren’t exactly a lot of lenders lined up to fund those deals. So can be at 12 and three and have a lot less price resistance and also offer less leverage. I can deliver a higher return to my investors and also supply the market with the capital they need to do those deals. So we’re kind of competing for the main street sort of deals in the big cities.

Stephen S. (26:09.035)
Hmm.

Andrew (26:28.492)
but we’re also sort of doing these, I would say, non-institutional grade quality loans. And that doesn’t mean the loan is bad, it just means it doesn’t fit a of what the big shops offer. We also fund apartments, you know, five plus, five to 20 unit. That seems to be like a pretty good niche to be in as well.

Stephen S. (26:52.651)
Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. So what what’s like some of the big differences? I know you touched on a couple of them, but I want to dive a little bit further in there like compared to like a key, for example. When when is someone going to come to you versus going to key, I’ll be outside of like your typical is like a bridge loan, a DSCR, etc. Like, what are the ones that you really help?

Andrew (27:12.908)
Well, Kiabi’s a very good lender when they’re on. They’ve built a machine over there and I have immense respect for the business they’ve built. I I would love to build a business like that someday. You you would come to us, for example, like after COVID, right? They were shut off for about three months reorganizing their funding. I never missed the funding during that period.

So if they’re out of the market because of a black swan event, you have to come to someone like us who’s more private. Also, when hurricanes come through Florida and certain lenders shut down for a month or two to kind of evaluate the storm or this or that, we live in Florida. Like we will hunker down for a hurricane for day and a half and then we’re sending wires the next day. So we don’t do these like long pauses during hurricane season.

Stephen S. (28:03.178)
right.

Andrew (28:07.618)
You know, we’re still good. We’re not going to be stupid during a hurt during a natural disaster, but we will. We’re very nimble, so we’ll adapt very quickly, communicate quickly and fund right away. So yeah, I mean, again, it’s it’s the private thing versus more more of the Main Street angle. You know, they I hate to say that we’re like subprime.

but we will fund lower credit deals at a lower leverage and at an increased price. So if you have like a 640 FICO, for example, we might haircut your loan 10%, charge an extra point, but at the end of the day, we’ll get it done, where it might not fit the AI underwriting. Apartments.

They don’t fund apartments. I don’t think they fund low purchase, rehab and rural markets. I’ve heard maybe for VIPs they might fund them, but for normal borrowers they might not. So really they have a great platform. I think.

I tell my borrowers this. say you should be diversified in your own selfish best interests. You know, even if I’m getting all your deal flow, I might not be here next year. So you should have two or three relationships, maybe an institutional guy, maybe a bank or credit union where you keep all your accounts and then maybe a couple of, you know, private hard money guys that have sort of a fund. You want to have like different options because

Stephen S. (29:27.146)
Right.

Andrew (29:44.45)
When the market shuts off, that’s when there’s blood in the streets and that’s when there’s a lot of opportunity. And during COVID, it was crazy because nobody was lending. So all these brokers couldn’t fund any deals because they couldn’t find anyone. So I’m getting eight people, 800 credit, putting 50 percent down and I’m charging them like five points and 13 percent because there’s no one else is funding alone. It’s crazy. So you just you want to have a lot of options before you need them.

Stephen S. (30:12.555)
Right. It’s all about the relationships 100 % man. Well, this has been a great episode We’ve we’ve gone all over the map Let let me ask you this Andrew for our listeners if they want to learn more about you connect with you Where should they go for that?

Andrew (30:15.138)
Yep.

Andrew (30:28.344)
So I’m on Instagram as Hard Money Drew, but our company is Central Lending. So the domain is simply centrallending.com. If you want us to take a deal, take a look at your deal and price it out and quote it for you.

Stephen S. (30:41.547)
There you go, go check him out, Hard Money Drew on social. if you’re in need of building another relationship in the lending space, go check him out at www.centrallending.com. And until then, for our next episode, we’ll see you then. Thanks again, Andrew, for being here. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. And we’ll see y’all in the next one, y’all.

Andrew (31:01.836)
Thank you.