Secrets Revealed: How to Build Wealth Through Real Estate & Construction

Brett McCollum (00:00.878)
Alright guys, welcome back to the show. I’m your host Brett McCollum and I’m here today with Matt Shaver and today we’re going to be talking about construction and real estate. Before we do guys, here at Investor Fuel we help real estate investors, service providers, and real estate entrepreneurs to 2 to 5x their businesses to allow them to build the businesses they’ve always wanted and allow them to build the lives they’ve always dreamed of. Without further ado, Matt, how are you man?

Matt Shaver (00:25.945)
I’m doing good. How you doing, Brett?

Brett McCollum (00:27.852)
Man, doing good. was super cool catching up with you, getting to know you pre-show. Definitely went down some little rabbit holes together. So that was exciting. We will spare you guys from all of our crazy conversations, I promise you. But yeah, man, before… Yeah, there you go. Before we do, guys, Matt, let’s give some history. So, you know, tell people a little bit about yourself, you know, kind of catch us up to speed,

Matt Shaver (00:35.108)
Hahaha!

Right. Yes. We took our 10 hats off.

Matt Shaver (00:53.572)
All right. So I am 48 years old. I have been married to my beautiful wife, Angela, for 20 plus years now or 20 years now. I got two kids. One is a junior and one is a freshman in high school. So that keeps me on my toes and life interesting outside of the business world. And yeah, just, I renovate homes for profit. I have a building company.

it all kind of got started with, real estate investment and now it’s just kind of snowballed into other directions, still focused around real estate investing. we have a motel that we STR out and kind of walk that line a little bit, but, yeah, kind of wherever I can make money in real estate, that’s where I’m at.

Brett McCollum (01:45.39)
There you go. We always say in real estate, it’s the thing that leads to the thing, you know? Yeah, that’s super cool. all right, so you, talked a little again, like kind of pre-show a bit and you’re up in Michigan, correct? Yeah, so now West Michigan. Okay, that’s what I was gonna say. I wanna make sure I got that right. So West Michigan, when did you really start like dipping your toe into like the, let’s start in the like super like high level, like in the construction world even.

Matt Shaver (01:50.679)
Right.

Matt Shaver (01:59.075)
Yes, yep, West Michigan.

Matt Shaver (02:14.981)
Yeah. So when I was 15, my dad kind of, I come from a modest farming family, um, in mid Michigan. And my dad kind of came to me and was like, Hey, you’re 15 years old. You kind of need to start, you know, you’re going to be driving next year. Let’s start earning some money to put down towards the car and everything. And I was like, well, what do I do? You know? And my dad said, um, I don’t care if you do small engines, construction.

something he goes learn a trade and you’ll never be unemployed So I went to work kind of I Was a bigger kid so I was I worked well as a laborer right guys like I would carry lumber around and stuff like that kind of started to learn the construction business that way but yeah, that’s kind of That’s the quick snap of how I got into it

Brett McCollum (02:45.763)
Hmm.

Brett McCollum (03:05.496)
Yeah, that’s crazy. I mean, good on our parents. So I think I kind of try to, I feel somewhat guilt. So my oldest is 11. So that’s where we’re at in our season of journey with our kids. But I try to really reflect on, I think generationally speaking, a lot of us parents maybe missed, a lot of us have missed the mark on teaching our kids the value of hard work.

Matt Shaver (03:14.735)
Mm-hmm.

Gotcha.

Matt Shaver (03:31.116)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, work ethics everything, man.

Brett McCollum (03:34.092)
man, well, I mean, look at it, right? Like, look at our parents’ generation. Look at, like, these, they worked. Like, you know, and I think they taught us the same thing, and then you see us, we worked, but then you look at our generation of kids, and it’s like, they don’t know what work even looks like, and like, how did we, and I just say we, because like, it’s my generation too, you know, how did we let that happen? You know, like, man.

Matt Shaver (03:40.697)
Sure. Yeah.

Matt Shaver (03:50.735)
Right.

Matt Shaver (03:56.698)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett McCollum (03:59.81)
But like, so that’s why I’m like, good on dad for teaching you like, son, you’re turning 16 next year and you’re driving. Life doesn’t get handed to you, you gotta go work.

Matt Shaver (04:05.476)
Yeah.

Matt Shaver (04:09.029)
Right. That’s kind of big in our family, right? Like, I mean, my son has had a job and since he was 15, he started bagging groceries next door to my motel here. And now he works at another retail shop a couple of days a week. He’s a full-time athlete, a student and has a job. yeah, like I, you know, everybody says to me and I’ve even had

conversations with my kids, they’re like, well, why are you making me work? We have all these things, right? And I always tell them, no, we don’t. Your mom and I do.

Brett McCollum (04:48.674)
Bro, get out of here. Yeah, that’s exactly what we tell our kids. Like, you don’t have anything.

Matt Shaver (04:52.743)
Yeah. No, no, no. And it’s like, I got friends, right? I even mentor people, you know, that are driving the Cadillac Escalade Suburban around, but yet they are like, come to me about, well, how do I get into investing and stuff? And I’m like, go sell the Suburban that you’re paying $1,400 a month for, and it’s a diminishing liability basically, right? It’s like losing value every day.

And I said, and then take that money and go buy yourself an 800 square foot rental and go make $1,400 a month instead of throwing it out the window, right?

Brett McCollum (05:31.596)
Right. It’s just a shift, right? what, yeah, no, I think that’s incredible because I want more than anything, it’s like you study, I study like a lot of these wealthy families from American history, right? And you look at a lot of them today, like those families like had every, I mean, we want to talk about wealth. You know, we talk about the Elon Musk, the Bezos, those guys, and they are very wealthy people.

Matt Shaver (05:35.035)
Yeah.

Matt Shaver (05:48.103)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Shaver (05:55.324)
Yeah.

Matt Shaver (06:00.881)
Mmm.

Brett McCollum (06:01.25)
But if you dollar for dollar, back then money is today’s money. mean, we’re talking, dude, the Rockefellers, mean, in the JP Morgan’s, guy, we were talking, it was like insane amount of money that they controlled and had. And guess what? You fast forward just a couple generations, all of that money’s gone.

Matt Shaver (06:07.528)
They’re not the Rockefellers.

Matt Shaver (06:21.677)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Brett McCollum (06:23.456)
And like that’s the last thing I want for my family is to be able to, you know, guess my grandkids, you know, someday have like for what? Like, what was this for?

Matt Shaver (06:33.51)
Yeah. Well, you see that a lot with professional athletes, right? I mean, if, if you don’t start at a young age, you know, I tell everybody this thing, it’s kind of a lifestyle, right? Like, I mean, I even go down to, I do the simple things like I’m a firm believer in making your bed every morning, right? There’s your first wind of the day in the first five seconds of the day, get up, throw your covers over, make your bed. Boom. You’re off to a good start. You already got the wind and success is a lifestyle. You don’t accidentally.

become successful and stuff like that. And like you said, I mean, and just to re wrap around with the professional athletes, I think a lot of them come from a space of poverty, you know, and, maybe mom and dad didn’t teach them how to manage that money well. And, you know, I had another mentor of mine tell me fast money comes and goes fast, right? Like money that you earn over a long period of time is usually more sheltered.

It’s like better to be on this gradual step up than just looking for the fast kill because it’s going to be gone fast too, right?

Brett McCollum (07:41.39)
Yeah, now that’s actually good advice. would rewind, guys, if you’re listening, rewind that. Listen to that again. That was good. So, all right, so you’re 15, you start working, you do all that, and then when did you get into the, what was your dipping the toe in the real estate investment world? When was that?

Matt Shaver (07:46.632)
Hmm.

Matt Shaver (08:01.385)
Yeah, so I was working for the state of Michigan. And as you can probably imagine making a modest salary, right, my job moved my family over to West Michigan. And we moved over here in 2013, kind of on the tail end of the recession, right. So we owned a house in another area, but I was forced to move to another area that I took a promotion to.

And so I couldn’t sell my other house, because I was essentially $39,000 upside down in it at that point in time. But we were able to rent it out. And being a young couple that with young kids, I was able to, once you have a lease agreement in place, that does not count against your debt to income ratio, right?

So I was like, nice. So we got that. We were able to purchase our new home over here. And we just knew things were gonna be tight as is. Fast forward about six, seven months, I came downstairs one night and my wife was doing our bills at our desk downstairs, you know, and everything. And she was crying. And I said, well, what’s going on? You know, and she’s like, well, we’re gonna have to put groceries on a credit card this week because

Brett McCollum (09:05.39)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Shaver (09:25.418)
We’re like $400 shy every month of being able to pay our bills with our income. Okay. And so I think most people at that time, over the years I’ve met would kind of start to freak out. My response was, well, I’ve been looking at Zillow and realtor.com a lot, and I see a bunch of houses out here that I think I can fix up for a profit or rent, right?

And like start, I can probably make us cash positive if we run out of house for X amount of dollars. Um, and so needless to say, I talked my wife into, we each took a $14,000 loan from our 401k because we couldn’t take any more loans out via the bank. Right. Um, we bought our first house. I had a $10,000 limit credit card and we put

paint, carpet, and we rented the house out and I was $450 a month cash positive, cash flowed that house. So that put us $50 to the good in my home budget. And I fixed it up myself. I did my own thing, used my skills that I had. Then I took that house after we, and I used it and I was able to get it appraised by a bank.

and get a mortgage on it now because we had skin in the game, right? We owned it. What I had done to it, it appraised out at $79,000. Okay, so we were able to not only pay our 401ks back, I was able to pay off the credit card and I was sitting on like $40,000 now of, know, essentially like a HELOC is what it was. So then I parlayed that into the next house.

Brett McCollum (10:55.726)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Shaver (11:20.172)
And now I’ve got this formula, right? Like now I see, I can repeat this thing over and over and over again. And we did, and it essentially turned $28,000 and over three quarters of a million dollars in six years.

Brett McCollum (11:38.562)
Yeah, that’s incredible, man. That’s the… It’s a great reminder, because if you can always go back to that moment of walking in on your wife and she’s crying because we’re short. Like that is the… always… And then to fast forward, like, man, this happened… It seems to me, you know, a lot of us get into a situation…

Matt Shaver (11:51.551)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brett McCollum (12:07.584)
Not everybody, but a lot of us are in a situation where like, what am I gonna do now? And the funny thing is that real estate’s always been in front of you. It’s never not been in front of us. And then it took a life event of some kind to make us go, like, just see it, you know, like, what? is, you know, and so I have a business coach that always says rock bottom is a very firm foundation.

Matt Shaver (12:12.639)
Yeah.

Matt Shaver (12:20.437)
Right.

Matt Shaver (12:28.172)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Shaver (12:36.395)
Absolutely. My grandfather used to say starvation is the best motivator. Right? Same thing.

Brett McCollum (12:43.87)
And it’s weird though why like that some of us are, I don’t know about you, but I know how I am wired. I’m so daggum stubborn sometimes, Matt, where like, I’ll just figure it out. I’ll just figure it out. I’ll just figure it out until something happens that I’m like, my God, what am I gonna do now? And then that really makes you go, I haven’t figured it out. And I think that’s kind of how I got my start into real estate was we were in a…

Matt Shaver (13:02.07)
Right?

Matt Shaver (13:07.242)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett McCollum (13:12.076)
like in an no situation, what are we gonna do? You know? But yeah, that’s an incredible story, man, like being able to say that. you parlayed that all up. What about like today? What are you guys doing? Like what is business look like? What are you guys? Like, cause I’m sure it’s not always been easy either, though. I’m sure you’ve had taken some hits along the way, but what’s business?

Matt Shaver (13:15.158)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Shaver (13:25.643)
Matt Shaver (13:32.523)
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, business for me now is I have left my job with the state Michigan, right? I was essentially, you know, going through this entrepreneurship thing. I got to the point where I was losing money going to my day job because my side hustle was outperforming it. Right. And so you have to get to this point where you need to be realistic with yourself and be like, well, is this going to stay a side hustle or not?

Brett McCollum (13:53.528)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Shaver (14:01.51)
so yeah, so in 2018, I jumped ship and I went all in on this. God bless my wife. his stood beside me. She has a very great job. So it allowed me to be able to kind of jump where maybe some other people can’t, but, you know, I knew like,

Like our life together, we, we’ve never lived outside of our means. And so she was able to kind of hold us afloat until we are where we’re at today. but yeah, so 2018 left my, my state job, fall in on restoration homes. I would say at that point I’ve kind of went from the house flipper to the house restore. We do a lot of custom stuff. and we’re not just.

doing the bare minimum to make money, right? I’ve always said the cornerstone of our company is I would never sell you a house that I wouldn’t sell my own kids. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a budget or something on there. A $90,000 house looks a lot different than my $490,000 house that I sell, but I would still in that $90,000 house do everything that I could to make sure the hot water heater’s good, stuff like that. The big hit stuff.

Brett McCollum (15:06.146)
right.

Brett McCollum (15:18.67)
That’s right.

Matt Shaver (15:22.178)
furnace was good, all that. Yeah, and so now we’re sitting on here. I’m actually in the office. I own a 12 unit old 1959 motel that’s been remodeled. We’ve turned it into a boutique motel. It’s called the Drift On In. It’s in North Muskegon, Michigan, if you wanna check it out. And then I currently have a building development company.

restore a couple of houses a year. I do have a crew of guys that we do, remodel jobs in, in current homes for other people. And, like I was discussing with you before we kind of went on here, we’re, are now acquiring a restoration company, kind of in the spirit of I have a building company, so I’m buying my, my foot through the door to be there for that.

first remodel job or whatever. So it’s all about positioning yourself, right? You gotta constantly be positioning yourself to fill the funnel is what I look at.

Brett McCollum (16:24.076)
Yeah.

Brett McCollum (16:30.562)
Yeah, and you’re using, which is really cool, you’re using your construction background and the construction business as more of the funnel into the other types of business that you’re doing, right? Yeah, which is, you know, we say this, I’ve said it on other shows as well, there’s a phrase, or she who controls the money controls the deal, if you’ve heard that, but then you get, but I really strongly,

Matt Shaver (16:45.614)
100%.

Matt Shaver (16:57.56)
Yep.

Brett McCollum (17:00.332)
sometimes even more believe that might be true, but here she who owns or controls the construction really is who controls the deal because that’ll make her break everything you do, you know? Yeah.

Matt Shaver (17:08.739)
Yeah.

Matt Shaver (17:12.144)
100%. Yeah. There’s, and I’m sure you guys have had them on here, right? Is like, there’s so many people and you and I discussed this also, I call it Facebook rich. There’s so many people on social media right now. They’re selling like, Hey, get into real estate investing, buy up these, you know, distressed homes, fix them all. Even if you don’t know anything and do 10 or 15 of them.

Like they think it’s really sexy to do 10 or 15 different projects a year, right? And I do, I am a professional, a licensed builder. That’s what I do. I’m a general contractor by trade. And I only do like four a year because I realize if you’re not babysitting those jobs accurately, there is a contractor or a subcontractor that is dogging you and burning money out of your wallet left and right.

And I’d rather do four jobs a year and make $250,000 than run around like an idiot trying to manage 25 jobs a year to make $52,000 a year. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like take the, do the good jobs. Don’t just, it’s like talking a lot and saying a little, right? Don’t just, just because you’re on the rat wheel doesn’t mean you’re going anywhere. You’re just.

Brett McCollum (18:21.816)
same amount of money really when you boil it down.

Matt Shaver (18:38.489)
I’d rather be the other guy sitting next door, you know?

Brett McCollum (18:41.87)
Yeah, and then you have, we say, you know, fewer better deals, right? Like that’s, yeah, the sanity that comes along with that too, right? Like the man, now I’ve been on both sides of it, you know, where it’s like, it’s when you’re running crazy trying to manage all the things, cause that’s what, you know, you’re around these groups of people that say, you need to be doing this and this at the other. You’re not playing, you’re an entrepreneur, Matt, you need to be playing bigger, you know, you’re not playing big enough.

Matt Shaver (18:46.37)
Absolutely.

Matt Shaver (18:53.988)
Right?

Matt Shaver (19:11.023)
Yeah.

Brett McCollum (19:11.768)
You have so much potential, you can do this. And then in your head you’re like, I can do it, you know? And it all comes from a, for a lot of us it’s not out of a place, some people it is, but for a lot of us it’s not out a place of ego as much as it is where like, I’m capable of more, so I can do it.

Matt Shaver (19:17.999)
Yeah.

Matt Shaver (19:27.6)
I mean, I run around like an idiot, right? Like I sleep for four hours a day. A lot of it is self-induced, but I mean, yeah, I like to do the bigger deals and stuff like that because I really try to have a good work-life balance, you know? And so you can, Dan Martel calls it the GSD syndrome, getting shit done, right? And like, sorry if you can’t my language, but it’s like, that is the term.

Brett McCollum (19:43.31)
That’s right.

Matt Shaver (19:56.655)
because as an entrepreneur, like, man, those first years, dude, you’re grinding, right? So you can get caught up in this like, right. But also just like with the home thing, how I quickly found out as a business person, everything, once you start to kind of lift up the veil a little bit, everything has a system or a game to it. And once you figure out the rules of the game, man,

You almost, you have the secret code, right? So now you’re like, I can go from this business to that business. And because I’m successful, I know how to be a successful business owner over here. So I can jump over there and my learning curve is very short because I know like what systems makes a heavy hidden business, you know.

Brett McCollum (20:51.554)
Yeah, well, so my coach had always taught me to hustle is a season, not a lifestyle. Right, and there’s an appropriate season for hustling, especially in beginning, and things go and you have, mean, nothing worth having comes without work. You’ve got to work. Yeah, and back to what we’re talking about with our kids, you gotta teach, you gotta work.

Matt Shaver (20:59.141)
Yeah. Yep.

Matt Shaver (21:03.258)
Right on.

Matt Shaver (21:09.914)
Absolutely.

Brett McCollum (21:15.842)
But that doesn’t mean that you have to be successful. You have to flip 100 houses. And by the way, if you guys are doing that and that’s your business and you’ve got, by all means, teach theirs. If you’ve got a team of people and you’ve got things set up and you’re able to do that, by all means, run and do it. I’m certainly not speaking against it. For me personally, that became a mental, like it sucked for me. And I’m just not.

Matt Shaver (21:24.517)
Do it.

Matt Shaver (21:33.201)
for sure.

Matt Shaver (21:43.942)
Yeah.

Brett McCollum (21:45.102)
I’m not wired that way. I personally didn’t like it, but what I found, and it sounds like what you’re saying is like, I figured out that I can be as profitable doing a handful of flips a year as I was doing 20.

Matt Shaver (21:47.026)
100%.

Matt Shaver (21:59.088)
Yeah. Why would you not want to be on a beach drinking pina coladas instead of like, Hey, I’m, I’m done closing 30 deals this month. And it’s like, okay, I get it. And like you said, don’t get me wrong, man. That’s like when you start a new business or you’re I’m doing a new project. I just flat out to my wife. Well, we can kiss the next six months away, right? We’re going to be, it’s just going to be cranking mode. But I’m always working towards of.

Brett McCollum (22:03.48)
Yeah.

Matt Shaver (22:28.743)
how quickly can I get back on the beach in my sandals and stuff and stuff, know, Absolutely. Yep, yep.

Brett McCollum (22:31.128)
That’s right. It’s a season, not a lifestyle, and that’s it. And there’s always an appropriate season for it, you know? Let me ask you this, because this is kind of cool. You’re the motel. Kind of give me the high end, the, you know, what’s, you bought it, what’s the vision of it, and where you think it’s going, that sort of thing.

Matt Shaver (22:42.065)
Yeah.

Matt Shaver (22:49.874)
Right on. um, taking all that, what I had built as far as rental home properties and 2020 when COVID hit, um, our governor was like, well, we’re not going to force people to pay rent, right? That she did a rent moratorium. Um, and I, you know, as investing in real estate and any landlord can tell you the hardest part of the game is getting people to pay in the first place, you know? So, um,

We instantly kind of liquidated our assets as far as rentals at that point in time. Of course, didn’t know where the world was gonna go, right? I mean, we were all like, couldn’t even leave our houses at some point. so, so I was like, you know, this could be a really great year long project. It was big enough. The motel was built 1959. It was not open and running when I bought it.

Um, so it needed a full renovation stripped down to the center block restart, right? So I knew it was going to take me and, um, my crew a year to basically get it up and going. And of course I say my crew, but really at that point in time, my crew consisted of a tile guy and my son and me, and you couldn’t work. Nobody could work, right? But I could come here every day and keep going. So we turned it into a little boutique motel.

Brett McCollum (24:15.308)
Yeah.

Matt Shaver (24:17.907)
Um, you know, we knew that the area could support it. We, um, STRs were really coming into, you know, a great, um, thing to have in your portfolio. Yeah. Um, when I started this, there was 15, um, STRs in the city of Muskegon here, and now there’s like 150. So yeah, you know, and it’s happening all over the United States. Um.

Brett McCollum (24:25.454)
Mm-hmm. Good timing.

Matt Shaver (24:45.491)
My personal point of view is we got a 10 year lifespan on this before STR is really good. I mean, you already see townships and stuff are starting to tighten up. need special permits to do it. Great thing about the motel though is that’s what it’s always been, you know, a short term rental. So I am God fathered in against any kind of township ruling or whatever, because this business has always been short term, you know, and it’s always been a motel since 1959.

Brett McCollum (25:11.307)
on the event.

Matt Shaver (25:14.252)
so I really liked, I tried to firewall my investments the best I can. And I, that’s, you know, I didn’t want to buy a house on a cottage on a busy lake. Cause obviously people are going to start, you know, having their emotions about that. But this is in a commercial area. It’s always been a commercial building and, it’s in a desired spot. So worked out well renovated everything. and to say the least it’s for sale right now.

if anybody’s interested in money making, short-term rental that is insulated from stuff here in Michigan. But yeah, I just, I only try to like marry myself to like a three year project and I got it. It’s a moneymaker. It does well, but I’m not in the business of running a motel.

I do have a property manager, so it is nice. This is pretty much mailbox money for me at this point. you know, of course I’m able to do, I still have a couple of rooms left to renovate. It’s about 80 % renovated right now. So anytime I want to add value to it. but yeah, I mean, we’ve basically increased the value of the property four times over now. So, I mean, great investment, right? Five years later, anybody likes a four times multiplier and those.

Um, numbers, but, yeah, so that’s where I’m at. And, um, you know, I think it gives you some credibility to have commercial property. You know, I think, um, in the investment world, maybe you’re not a, a serious player or a top player while you’re messing around because so many people are doing residential. I think it shows like your commitment level and you’re looking on the bigger things, right?

Brett McCollum (27:05.525)
Yeah, yeah, and I like that. It’s forward thinking. It’s not just like in today, you know, and that’s really great. Well, man, I love the story where you’ve been, where you’re at, where you’re going. I think it’s incredible and it shows the consistency of resiliency of like, you know, like we just keep putting one foot in front of the other. And that’s a really, that’s when I’ve talked to lot of people, you know, and you start to see what success leaves clues, as they say.

Matt Shaver (27:08.786)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Shaver (27:33.898)
yeah, 100%.

Brett McCollum (27:35.338)
And that’s a common theme, is just that consistency, one foot in front of the other. Yeah, so it’s really cool. But man, if people want to get a hold of you, reach out to you, follow along the journey with you a little bit, what’s the best way for people to connect?

Matt Shaver (27:49.813)
Yeah, so my Instagram account is Flippin underscore with underscore Matty. So that’s kind of my Instagram page. My business page on Facebook is Titan Land Management. And that shows kind of the construction custom houses, my flips that I’m doing.

Slipping with Maddie is more or less my advice piece on Instagram. The titling and management piece on Facebook is more of like what projects we’re working on and gives us validity to what we’re doing. And then, yeah, and then you can reach out to me on Facebook, Instagram. I do a lot of mentoring. I do have a mentorship, investing mentorship that I take on maybe 10 people a month.

Uh, it’s, know, a hundred bucks a month there to get them, uh, get you from point A to Z a lot faster, right? Cause all of us entrepreneurs know, um, without a mentor, I mean, I, I banged my head up against so many walls until I was not stubborn enough to get some help. I’m like, what, what have I been doing? You know, I mean, I just went, I skyrocketed after I had somebody help show me the playbook a little bit.

Brett McCollum (28:54.827)
Exactly.

Brett McCollum (29:06.819)
Yep.

Matt Shaver (29:16.632)
So that’s how you get hold of me, man. I’m always here.

Brett McCollum (29:20.504)
Perfect. Guys, seriously, check that out. We’ll have those in the show notes for everybody to follow too. But man, Matt, this has been super cool hanging out with you, getting to know you, getting to hear your story. And guys, seriously, go find his socials, check him out, follow him, and connect with him. But Matt, man, pleasure having you. Thanks for being with me, man.

Matt Shaver (29:38.965)
Yeah, perfect. Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate you.

Brett McCollum (29:42.697)
Alright guys, until we see you, to the next episode. Take care everybody.