Overcoming Adversity

Brett McCollum (00:01.004)
All right guys, welcome back to the show. I’m your host Brett McCollum and I’m here today with Sanjiv Jan. He’s out of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and today we are going to talk about how to overcome adversity after adversity and still thrive even after 25 years in the industry. Before we do guys, I wanna talk to you a little bit about Investor Fuel. At Investor Fuel we help real estate investors.

service providers and real estate entrepreneurs to 5x their businesses to allow them to build the businesses they’ve always wanted and to allow them to live the lives they’ve always dreamed of. Without further ado, Sanjiv, welcome to the show.

Sanjiv Jain (00:37.762)
Thank you. Thank you very much. I’m so excited by that intro. I’m like, ooh, Five Acts of Business sounds good to me. I love it.

Brett McCollum (00:42.478)
I love it, right? Yeah, man. Well, hey, enough about kind of me, we’ve talked a lot off off, you know, a little bit I really am, man, I’m so excited to introduce people to you. In the few minutes we’ve had pre show, like, man, I think I want to be best friends with you already. But yeah, man. So like, that’s awesome.

Sanjiv Jain (00:52.086)
Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (01:02.21)
Well, thank you. Most people that hate me do.

Brett McCollum (01:09.23)
Hey, can you do us a favor? Catch us up to speed a little bit. Who are you? Give us some background. Like how did you get into real estate? That sort of thing.

Sanjiv Jain (01:13.282)
Sure, sure. I’d be happy to. Now, something that I sometimes do when I speak before audiences is I start talking with my Indian accent because I was actually born in India, but my parents came here when I’m two and a half years old. And sometimes when people don’t hear me talk like this, they feel a little bit uncomfortable and a little bit confused. So sometimes I just talk in a way that people can say, oh, now he sounds normal.

Brett McCollum (01:34.903)
You

Brett McCollum (01:40.696)
No way.

Sanjiv Jain (01:40.93)
But the reality is my parents came to this country when I was two and a half years old. I grew up in Seattle, Washington. And the Cliff Notes version, actually I just realized much of your audience probably doesn’t even know what Cliff Notes are. Way back before the internet, there were these things called Cliff Notes. And that’s how you got summaries of books.

Brett McCollum (01:53.592)
That right?

Brett McCollum (02:00.942)
And that’s how I got caught cheating on a test before is Cliff Notes.

Sanjiv Jain (02:03.874)
So I never read the Cliff Notes, but I heard that they exist. so…

I’m 59 years old. grew up in Seattle, Washington. I did my undergrad there. I got a bachelor’s degree in accounting as well as in business administration. And then I went to Carnegie Mellon and did a quantitative skills program. And then I went to the University of Texas at Austin and I got my MBA in marketing and finance from there. I’ve worked in corporate America at the headquarters for different times, you sometimes very short timeframes, but Hewlett Packard, Hallmark

in Kansas City. I worked at Whirlpool Corporation in Michigan. I have also worked for an oil company in the Midwest called Clark. And then I actually came back to Philadelphia. Sunoco, the oil company, recruited me out here. And that’s how I actually came to Philadelphia in 1998. I was married for 20 years. I have two beautiful girls. They’re awesome children that are two that are my biological daughters.

And then I have one bonus child, Kia, that I think of also as my daughter. And I’m married to the most perfect person for me, Becky, as my wife. And we’ve been together about 10 years. So that’s my summary. How about that?

Brett McCollum (03:28.78)
Man, you’ve had a couple of lives it sounds like. Yeah, that’s amazing. What a cool, what a cool background.

Sanjiv Jain (03:33.058)
feels like it. I’m living my best life right now though. And I really first got into real estate in 2000. I mean, I had owned like, you know, can’t say that I’ve been in real estate. Oh, I started in 2000. I had an investment property in Seattle that I bought with my brother. I had a triplex in St. Louis and I’ve had a single family house in Chicago, but really I got into real estate, what I’d call it investing in 2000.

Brett McCollum (03:58.67)
2000. you eventually you I mean you were I mean you said what did you say Hallmark HP and then you get into oil which brings you ultimately to Philadelphia where you’re at today correct? Okay. So how long were you before you started into like let’s call it as an investor okay were you doing

Sanjiv Jain (04:13.558)
That’s correct,

Brett McCollum (04:25.026)
the working full time and investing on the side, like how did that go?

Sanjiv Jain (04:27.902)
yeah, yeah, I call it dropping a ski, you know, if you’re into water skiing. So yes, I had my full-time job and I was skyrocketing in my career just to be, you know, I mean, I was skyrocketing. I got promoted and then promoted again and doing fabulous. And I actually submitted my resignation when I got offered another,

Brett McCollum (04:38.03)
Mmm.

Sanjiv Jain (04:49.218)
to be head of training and development for the entire company. My last job at Sunoco, I was director of e-commerce, which was an awesome opportunity. And some of your folks probably don’t remember, but way back then there was this thing called the dot-com boom. And I was right in the heart of that, working for what was called Old Economy Company at that time.

Brett McCollum (04:53.282)
No way.

Brett McCollum (05:12.238)
Mmm.

Sanjiv Jain (05:12.32)
And then, you know, sometimes people just go, yeah, but how’d you really get into it? So I did this seminar that had me, it had nothing to with real estate and it had me open up my eyes to what do I really want? and then from there, someone introduced me to this book, Joe Kearney, I used to work with him at Sunoco. And he said he read this book called Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. And I was like, okay. Well, you know, mostly I don’t read books. I mean, I read textbooks and all that, but I’m not a

Brett McCollum (05:35.554)
Yeah. Yep.

Sanjiv Jain (05:42.23)
reader. I am now by the way.

Brett McCollum (05:43.021)
Right.

Sanjiv Jain (05:45.216)
lots of books, I love reading books. And as I was reading Rich Dad Poor Dad, the version back then at page 65 got into what are assets and liabilities, and one of my degrees is in accounting. And I said, and it just blew my mind. I’m like, what? No one ever taught me this. You mean, you know, according to Robert’s explanation of it, is assets are something that put cash in my pocket and liabilities are something to take money out? I’m like, wow, that’s extraordinary.

Brett McCollum (06:13.518)
clicks, right? Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (06:15.14)
Then I said I want to get into passive income and that well, you know in his book cash flow quadrant and some of his other books I don’t remember which one but he talks about how well you could invent something and get a royalty You could buy stocks and get dividends and that’s passive income and then he went through all these things and I had had an investment property or two at that time and I said well real estate seems to be the easiest one

And this is of course it was the easiest one because I hadn’t really gotten into real estate like heavy yet and That’s that’s what that’s where I started and I thought if I could do one property a year That would be so amazing and I set a goal for myself and that that has been a key for a lot of things that I’ve accomplished It’s usually from some kind of a goal or a dream that I create and the goal that I created originally was I wanted a property that would cash flow positive and It would contribute. I think that

Brett McCollum (06:59.31)
Yeah.

Brett McCollum (07:05.292)
Okay.

Brett McCollum (07:11.918)
Mm-hmm.

Sanjiv Jain (07:14.564)
the was about $800 a month in positive cash flow so that I could buy my BMW M Roadster convertible and it would cover the cost of the car, the gas, insurance and maintenance and everything. And I think the math back then was about 800. And when the investment property that I ultimately did after kicking tires and putting offer, I must have put in over 20 offers and I must have looked at probably over 50 properties. And then ultimately when the one penciled out and I accomplished that, I thought, oh my

God, this is so amazing. Wow, you know, if I could do this, what else could I do? And I was hooked.

Brett McCollum (07:48.366)
We got the rush.

Brett McCollum (07:54.136)
Yeah, I bet. That’s how a lot of us started. I think a lot of us have that similar origin story, know, Rich Dad Poor Dad, you know, and what, you know, I was, before I got into it, so I was doing a lot already and my wife was just still kind of like, I don’t know, you know, on the fence. And then she read Rich Dad Poor Dad, you know, and man, that’s really cool. So you were, you’re working corporate America, you’re on the rise, you’re doing all, you know, you’re…

Effectively you’re crushing your your it’s the dream right the the American dream at that point like you’re doing it

Sanjiv Jain (08:27.862)
Workin’ my butt off. Yeah, it was. Workin’ my butt off. don’t know, I mean, see, the thing that most people don’t take responsibility for, I’ll just share with you, Brett, and I’ve rarely found people that do take this responsibility is God gives, I have a strong Christian faith, so you’ll hear me mention God a few times, is, I respect whatever it is that someone practices, and if you don’t practice anything, look, if you don’t take anything away from this, find something to practice, okay? I happen to have a

strong Christian faith, it’s worked for me, so I’m sticking with it. the thing is that we, know, God gives each and every one of us 168 hours a week. You know, some of us may be born,

more gifted, more intelligent, rich parents, poor parents. I’ve got a rags to riches story. I was born with a silver spoon story. I’m in a country that gives me benefits. I’m in a country that I had to struggle with, whatever. My race is this, my disability is this. That’s not the point that I’m pointing to here. God gives each and every one of us 168 hours. What are you doing with yours?

Brett McCollum (09:43.224)
Right.

Sanjiv Jain (09:44.009)
So I worked my butt off in corporate America. I got awards. I got a national award for being the best at something. I mean, I was doing great. I was giving my company that I worked for, Sunoco, more than I was obligated to. And that’s one way to stay relevant, right? You always give more than is expected of you. And I cut off cable. We didn’t even have internet back then, right? I cut off cable. And so look, I got 168 hours. I’ll work.

harder than anyone else will out there. And that’s it exactly what you said. There’s a dream. And you know, when my parents came to this country, I don’t have one of these stories of, we were refugees and nothing against refugees or anything like that. It’s not that. But when we came to this country, I was raised, you can do anything you want here. My parents were very successful in India. My mom has a master’s in English. She had one year of law school. My dad was a successful engineer.

my dad’s brother had gone to the University of Washington and they called their brothers and said, hey, know, come on over here. This is an awesome country. you know, if you really put your heart into it, this country will give you back more than you put into it. You know, and that’s what I grew up with. So if I saw people that were one percenters or whatever it is that they had, if someone else has it, I never got jealous or said, that’s not fair. No, it was like, wow, how can I? Like, if I want that, what do I need to do? So.

Brett McCollum (11:10.222)
How can I?

Yeah, and you believed it, right? Yeah. Yeah, that’s amazing. All right, so you coming out of corporate America and your transit, what did the transition look like into, when did you ultimately do start full time in real estate?

Sanjiv Jain (11:14.856)
Absolutely. And I’ve lived it.

Sanjiv Jain (11:28.93)
So my wife at the time was, depending on how you define full-time and real estate, I started, you know, I had two full-time jobs, right? But when I called Drop the Ski, yeah, exclusively real estate, so my wife was pregnant with our second child at the time, and I got offered that huge promotion. So we’re in the beginning of 2004, and…

Brett McCollum (11:35.48)
Sure. Yeah.

Brett McCollum (11:40.522)
exclusively. Let’s say it that way.

Sanjiv Jain (11:59.106)
And I talked with her and I said, listen, if I stay, I’m going to love this opportunity. I’m going to thrive in it. And we’d already hired one employee that was working for us. I said, but what about if I leave the safety, quote, safety, of corporate America and give it a go? Like this would be the time, right? And I did. And I will tell you, I struggled at first because I mentioned all the degrees I have and all the corporate America stuff. And what I struggled with, which I

Brett McCollum (12:05.912)
Mm-hmm.

Sanjiv Jain (12:29.06)
didn’t pay attention to is I didn’t pay attention to trying to do something in a way that I wasn’t used to. You know if you’re a blue collar worker and all of a sudden you know you’ve worn jeans and a shirt your whole life and then all of a sudden you start wearing suits, it might be a little uncomfortable at first. My case was the reverse. I was used to and enjoyed wearing suits. I all of a sudden had nowhere to wear suits to.

Brett McCollum (12:37.678)
Mmm.

Sanjiv Jain (12:53.514)
So I struggled at first. And then I tried to cheap out and put an office in my basement. That didn’t work. maybe I’ll take a room over here. That didn’t work. It really started to do very well when I got professional and serious about this business for myself. I’m not saying it’s for anyone else, but that’s what I saw. It’s what would work for me.

Brett McCollum (13:14.274)
Yeah, that’s great. how long were you working both, like two, quote unquote, two full-time jobs? How long were you doing that for?

Sanjiv Jain (13:22.988)
Sure, was about almost four years. It was a little over three and a half years, know, burning the candle at both ends and had pretty much no social life. And I think that’s sustained working well over a hundred hours a week.

Brett McCollum (13:26.712)
Yeah, that’s right.

Sanjiv Jain (13:40.478)
When I look back, I think it’s sustainable only for two to three years. The impact that it had on me emotionally and psychologically was not one that’s sustainable. It’s not a sustainable model. I think I stayed with it a little.

Brett McCollum (13:53.292)
Yeah, I had a coach that taught me hustle is a season, not a lifestyle. Yeah. Yeah. So listen, that’s, I think as entrepreneurs, that’s kind of our, like, of course I can work 100 hours easy. Give it to me. Like I think that’s something built within us, right? I don’t know why that is, but we need to remember it’s a season, not a lifestyle.

Sanjiv Jain (13:58.24)
Yeah, exactly. I wish someone would tell me that.

Sanjiv Jain (14:12.929)
Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (14:18.241)
Yeah.

Brett McCollum (14:19.31)
So we talked a little bit pre-show too, and we introduced it this way too, adversity. It’s all well and good to talk about all the good things, all the best things that are like, oh my gosh, real estate afforded me this lifestyle, it did this, that and the other. And it does, right? But it also comes with its challenges. And again, we talked a little bit pre-show, but I really wanted people to hear you talk a little bit, I mean, you’ve been 25 years now, like,

Sanjiv Jain (14:33.888)
Yeah.

Brett McCollum (14:49.006)
I mean, I know that in our world, that’s you may as well have been in it like 100 years. So you know what I mean? that, like that’s people need. I want people to hear some of the adversity and the lessons you’ve learned and the things you’ve walked through. That’s okay. Yeah. So, so tell us a little bit about some of that. I mean, you were, you went through 2001, like the dot com bubble, right? You know, the, nine 11, you’ve been through the eight crash.

Sanjiv Jain (14:57.122)
Sure.

Yeah, let’s talk about that.

Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (15:14.721)
Yeah?

Brett McCollum (15:18.54)
You know, we’re currently in some sort of weird thing today, you know, like that we’ll call it something. I’m sure 10 years from now we’ll call it something, you know? Yeah. So talk, talk a little bit about adversity, you know, and, what that’s looked like for you and, you know, walk me through that a little bit.

Sanjiv Jain (15:25.878)
We’ll have some name for it. The pandemic, post pandemic. Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (15:36.342)
Yeah, I can tell you I haven’t been smiling the entire time. Okay. I’ve had tears. I’ve had doubts. I’ve had like, geez, this is it. Right. the first one was when 9-11 happened and I had just put under contract my very first commercial property. And you know, for those that weren’t alive then,

or certainly weren’t like adults or young teenagers then you know it’s

Sanjiv Jain (16:16.479)
It was a scary time. We didn’t know what was happening. Everybody remembers where they were when 9-11 happened. I was in our corporate offices on the 22nd floor and someone just walked by my office and said, hey, you want to come to the conference room? looks like someone drove a plane into one of the.

Trade Center towers. And I remember thinking, what an idiot, right? And I thought in my mind it was just a small plane, right? And I thought, wow, I hope everyone’s OK. And then a little bit later, someone else came by and said, no, listen, you want to come to the conference room. This is serious. It was a commercial plane, and there’s a second one that just hit. I’m like, my god.

first terror attack on our country. And I remember sitting in there and hearing when the reporter was speaking, by the way, if anyone has not been to the 9-11 memorial in New York City, it’s quite a tribute. It’s worth going. You should know that part of our history of our country.

Brett McCollum (17:22.766)
sobering. Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (17:29.532)
that especially if you weren’t alive to understand how it’s changed us. anyway, I remember vividly hearing this kthud, kthud, kthud, kthud. And while the reporter’s talking, I’m like, what is that? And then I was sick to my stomach when I realized it was bodies, it was people throwing themselves out of the windows and the sound that that made. So,

Within the next several days, we didn’t know what was happening in our country and the world. We’re under attack, right? And I had the biggest contract for the biggest purchase and the first one ever of a commercial property that I ever made. And I had doubts. I’m like, my God, should I do this? Should I not? Maybe I shouldn’t. What am I thinking? Am I going too fast?

Brett McCollum (18:11.63)
Right.

Sanjiv Jain (18:20.042)
Now, what I did is I called people that I know and that I trust, but really, I called my banker. His name’s Rich Gentile, he’s, the bank name has changed a few times, and he’s changed the bank that he works with a few times, but I’m still in connection with him. And I remember what he said to me was, said, Sanjiv, it’s a good purchase.

in a great neighborhood. It’s a great property. If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be loaning you the money. I promise you, you’ll never regret it.

Brett McCollum (18:57.134)
Mm.

Sanjiv Jain (18:57.954)
just hearing that from the person that was loaning me all that money. And then I said, but Rich, I’ve even gone over to Borders Bookstore to get in their commercial, because we didn’t have Google, we didn’t have YouTube, we didn’t have this stuff back then. I said, I went and I got a commercial book and I said, I don’t even understand it. I said, Sanjiv.

If there’s anything you’re dealing, I don’t understand commercial leases. If there’s anything you have trouble with, you call me and I will put you in touch with someone that will help you and answer you. You’re not alone in this. That was huge. And you know, I bought that building for 750,000 back then. It recently appraised for 4 million and that was pre pandemic, right? I’m sure it’s well over that now, right? And we’ve spent hundreds of thousands in renovations and you know all that in it, but that’s

not the point. It was my first commercial building. I was scared to death and then something happened outside of my control and I thought maybe I shouldn’t do this. And I’m not saying, I want to be clear here, I’m not saying, don’t worry about it, you should go for it anyway. No, I picked up the phone and that’s one of my magic formulas is I pick up the phone. I call someone that I trust that’s been there, done that, or that can advise me and I listen to them. I take what they say under consideration.

I don’t just follow it blindly. I take it under consideration and make my own decisions, and I’m glad I did and You know I I got the loan for that and you know but but through that whole 9-eleven thing there were all types of challenges businesses You know that some of my tenants were like we don’t know if we’re going to open and all this and anyway But we made it through that

Brett McCollum (20:44.216)
Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (20:44.52)
And when 2008 hit, same thing. called, I got advice from my banker and from others on what was happening. I’ve been responsible. I also wasn’t always chasing the eighth of a point cheaper or can someone else save me a few hundred bucks? I maintained relationships. That’s something that has made a big difference as I’ve gone through this adversity stuff is the relationships that I’ve made. If you think this is a transactional business, you’re not in it for the long haul.

Brett McCollum (20:47.17)
Yep.

Brett McCollum (21:01.006)
Hmm.

Sanjiv Jain (21:14.434)
anyone that’s been it for the long haul, you know, it’s a relationship business. Because stuff’s going to happen. Things will go sideways.

Brett McCollum (21:17.176)
Yeah, it’s a relationship.

Yeah. Let’s pause there for a half a second and then let’s talk. Cause you mentioned that now twice. He picked up the phone. You know, these are two of our historically, you know, in, in real estate major cycles, you know, one, eight and somebody that’s been there and done it and made it through it. And you said the first thing I called people, I talked to people I in relationship, you know, I think a lot of us,

that are trying to figure it all out are all like you said, you’re looking from the transactional lens instead of the relational lens. as a really powerful thing you said there, and I want people to kind of go back. If you’re listening to this, rewind it and relisten to that because, that is if you let that, if you get that into your light, like get it, let it get inside of you and realize that we need each other. We need people. that was really powerful. Sanjiv. I really, I just wanted to highlight that again real quick.

Sanjiv Jain (21:55.937)
Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (22:17.314)
Well, thank you. Brett, we’re very fortunate to be in an industry where we can be competitors with each other and we support and empower and encourage and share with each other. Very few people in this business, especially ones that are in this for the long haul, you know, don’t share. We’ll share who’s the great plumber, who’s not. You know, oh, you stuck with this? Let me kind of give you a hand. You know, it’s it’s we help each other out.

Brett McCollum (22:25.323)
Mm-hmm.

Brett McCollum (22:35.79)
Hmm

Brett McCollum (22:43.372)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (22:47.268)
We’re all running the race at times we’re competing for the same property or whatever the deal is, right? But it’s an industry where we actually support and encourage each other. And if you’re thinking you’re in this alone, that means you’re really not in the real game. This is a team sport.

Brett McCollum (23:03.19)
Yeah, surround yourself with a different set of people then if that’s the case too. need to… yeah, I love it.

Sanjiv Jain (23:07.906)
Yeah. And we’ve, by the way, no matter how successful you think someone is, you know, if they say they’ve not dealt with adversity, either they’re lying or they’re lying. You know, it’s, there’s nobody that’s in this business that hasn’t been surprised, shocked, the market shifted, interest rates shifted, a project went sideways, you know, any of that.

Brett McCollum (23:32.334)
Well, let’s talk about that for a second because, all right, that was, for some people, that, 2001, oh wait, that’s ancient history, they don’t know, they can’t relate to that, right? Talk to me about today, I bet it’s absolutely, it’s perfect today, isn’t it?

Sanjiv Jain (23:45.922)
It’s never perfect and it’s always perfect. It’s you got to pivot. So let’s jump ahead a little bit to the pre-pandemic or right at the pandemic. pandemic hits. I’ve got over a dozen commercial buildings. The government orders are tenants. You may not open your doors, right? Look, maybe amongst real estate investors, my position may be

Brett McCollum (23:57.656)
Ahem.

Brett McCollum (24:04.344)
Yeah. Yep.

Sanjiv Jain (24:16.786)
respected mostly amongst the general population and tenants. My position is probably not respected, which is my lease is my lease. And this is what I told my commercial tenants. And this is after having been through this journey with these other times, like 2008 to 2012. You know, that’s about when I really struggled and thought I’d lost it a couple of times. And I mean, I could get I spent a whole time on just any one of those stories and how it went. But but it’s

Getting calls from tenants, and I’m kind, but I’m professional and firm, is no, the lease is the lease and I expect you to pay. There’s no one helping me. There is no government money. I don’t have government backed loans. There is nobody that is helping me. I’m not getting any money from anywhere. PPP doesn’t apply to me, et cetera. some of them took, I think one of the commercial tenants took almost a year, and after talking

with her lawyer a couple of times. just said, know I’ll get paid if I need to. Eventually the courts will open and when they open I will file and when I file, you know, she’s personally guaranteed this loan. So I know I’ll get paid. It’ll take me time. Fortunately, my other commercial tenants are paying or then I negotiated with some for early terminations and then I got people in, right? So and I had great properties and and but here’s the thing. We had all these offices

that we converted to apartments. Because all of a sudden I had a great reputation for counselors and psychiatrists. Guess what? They can’t come in. They can’t come in. can’t get customers. They can’t get customers and come in. They can’t run their business. And their thing was, how are we supposed to pay you?

and some of them we let out early and we converted them. And what I didn’t expect at that time, and we bought, we started buying, we bought millions of dollars of properties early on in that pandemic. And what we didn’t expect was prices were going to skyrocket a little bit later, you know, the inflation that we dealt with. And then we refinanced almost all of our portfolio. When we’re talking about high inflation and interest rates that are

Sanjiv Jain (26:31.94)
know, low, low, right? mean, homeowners could buy 2-3 % but commercial, we could get 4%, 30-year fixed, when inflation is 7%, it was a perfect storm for some of us. And that’s what I’m going to say is looking to see…

what makes sense and what affords us a great opportunity now. Because that changes. You right now interest rates are higher. They’re double. For some people that are in this business, they’re like, my god, the interest rates are so high. I’ll just wait till they come down. Dude, look at trends. You know, Google it. Look at a chart of historic interest rates. This is more normal. You know, this is not high. This is more normal. What we had was not normal.

Brett McCollum (26:57.326)
Right.

Brett McCollum (27:17.656)
Mm-hmm.

Brett McCollum (27:22.23)
Yeah. So, so today like it’s different, right? You mentioned that, you know, and that is kind of what we hear a lot. It’s rates are higher. Taxes are higher. This is higher. Everything’s, you know, and we haven’t seen a decline in pricing from real estate as a whole. like, you know, I agree.

Sanjiv Jain (27:22.486)
Yes, out.

Sanjiv Jain (27:27.115)
Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (27:39.362)
Brett, we’re not going to. I will tell you why I say this, okay? We’re not going to. I’m fortunate that I have all these different degrees, but you don’t need these degrees to understand this. All right, yeah, if you Google it, I mean, we’re doing this, we’re recording this here in 2025. So if you Google in the last four years, and I haven’t Googled it lately, but if you Google in the last four years, what percentage of all, you know, we’re a fiat currency in this country, right? That means we’re not backed by a gold standard or anything, just the full faith in the government.

Brett McCollum (28:04.429)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sanjiv Jain (28:09.326)
If you Google what percentage of all dollars printed were printed, and now it’s at Google in last four years, what you’re to find is a shocking percentage. I’ll pause for a moment so anyone that’s listening to this can come up with their own number. Now I’m going to give you the answer. It’s 80%.

80 % of all dollars printed in the last, that are out there were all printed in last four years. Here’s what that means. So four years ago, we had these many of whatever, call them dollars, right? And now we have these many. Do you think that this thing called the dollar became worth less when in four years we went from a supply of this to a supply of this? Yeah.

Brett McCollum (28:39.854)
Mm-hmm.

Sanjiv Jain (28:56.404)
It’s basic supply demand. And the value of the dollar, how we measure it, is it’s dramatically less. And all these games are being played to try and manage it. But real estate is something that has real, tangible value. And that’s going to either hold or continue to go up, because it’s got to get caught up. It’s got to get caught up with what the dollars are out there. So it’s just understanding some fundamental basics like that.

Brett McCollum (29:24.504)
So would you today, right, you have the beautiful ability to look back and go, I made it, right? For a lot of people, this is their first market cycle. Okay, what advice would you give that person going through that right now?

Sanjiv Jain (29:43.842)
Cash is king or queen. Cash is powerful. Even if you’ve to pay a higher interest rate to keep some cash with you, don’t try to pay down things. You want to preserve cash. There are always opportunities in every cycle.

Where I’ve messed up is where I didn’t look at fundamentals. In 2008, the only properties, I don’t remember what our portfolio size was then, right? Now we’re at over 250 doors. But the only properties that I was nervous or hurt in or scared of were the ones that I bought for ego.

Brett McCollum (30:27.267)
Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (30:27.33)
I bought them for ego because I can. I’ll catch it up in the capital appreciation. So what if I lose a few hundred dollars a month here on Cash Flow? I’ll make more money on this. The fundamentals can, what do they say? Style never goes, or style.

Classic stuff never goes out of style, right? There are trends. And that’s what I’d say is depending on what you’re getting into, if you’re in the Get Rich Quick game…

Brett McCollum (30:49.496)
Right.

Sanjiv Jain (30:58.1)
Make sure that you really keep an eye on when to fundamentals shift because if you’re in the get rich quick game, which I’d call sometimes it’s wholesaling, right? It’s a shorter timeframe so you’ve got a little bit more safety there. But if you’re in the flipping game, you want to really watch do fundamentals change. Interest rates are skyrocketing up. Guess what? That house, if you’re flipping and you’re looking for that retail buyer, are they all of a sudden going to go, well, I’m slamming on the brakes, I’m slowing way down. Okay.

Brett McCollum (31:27.118)
Hmm.

Sanjiv Jain (31:28.004)
rates are declining. Oh, people are jumping in to buy. It’s stuff like have you paid attention to the costs? Costs skyrocketed. You know how many people got like they lost their shirt. You know, our numbers are big in this business, but our margins are small. It’s so it’s paying attention to those fundamentals. And I just realized I’m talking and talking. I don’t know if I’m answering your question, Brett.

Brett McCollum (31:43.874)
Right. Yeah.

Brett McCollum (31:53.58)
No, you’re doing great. This is great. I do want to try to transition a little bit towards because we’re kind of running a little close on time here. We also talked pre-show on this and I wrote it down and I thought it was really powerful. You mentioned that you feel like you’re just getting started. And Sanjiv, you’ve been 25 years into this and we said the word and I really loved it, you’re dreaming. tell me about that a little bit. And we’ve only got a couple of minutes, so let’s kind of, let’s do, I hate to…

Sanjiv Jain (31:57.931)
Yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (32:11.499)
We are.

Sanjiv Jain (32:16.514)
Yeah. Sure.

Brett McCollum (32:23.17)
do that quickly, I would be remiss if we didn’t talk about that.

Sanjiv Jain (32:25.44)
No, no problem. I can do that. So, you know, my wife and I have really looked at where do we want to take our business and we want to grow. We want to grow the number of units. I was doing the Burr method before I knew it was the Burr method, right? Buy rent, renovate, buy.

Brett McCollum (32:39.158)
Yeah.

Brett McCollum (32:43.244)
refinance repeat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sanjiv Jain (32:44.642)
Yeah, that whole thing. You can go really to figure out what the acronym is. But I was doing it before I realized that’s what we’re doing. And we’ve done a great job. It just took me a long time to get to 250, I think we’re at 252 units now. But.

We actually want to get to over a thousand units and how we’re going to do that is we’ve got to get into small to medium-sized apartment buildings. just since last November, Becky, my wife and I have looked at, we’re like, yeah, we want to grow our units. We want to get to a thousand units. And mostly I’ve done this by ourselves and banks. And now we’re having to learn.

How can we structure this as a syndication where we can bring people in? And we haven’t started yet, but it’s going to be asking people, hey, do you want to invest cash with us? And we’re in it for the long haul, right?

and looking for people that then have cash that they’d like to put in safe and secure investments like multifamily real estate, which is what we’re going to get into. So I’m 59 years old. I’m clear I’ve got at least a good solid 10 years in me. And…

Maybe more, know, and so no I’m fired up about this where we’re also going to start building My brother invented a building system and he’s gotten patented patented and we’re actually gonna try it in a couple of buildings And if we are able to significantly build below cost We’re gonna start building as well Yeah, it’s it’s pivoting. You know right now that’s what we’re doing is we’re looking at what’s what is next Maintaining our core thing, which is we are the landlord

Brett McCollum (34:12.142)
changed the game, right? Yeah.

Brett McCollum (34:22.382)
But you’re looking ahead and you’re dreaming ahead instead of looking back at 2008, 2001 and you’re looking forward still and dreaming positively. I think that’s a beautiful thing.

Sanjiv Jain (34:34.518)
We look back to learn. Like don’t get me wrong, sometimes with my staff, I will drill down on what went wrong, not to focus on blame. That’s a really debilitating quality that we have in society. We look to blame and shame. We get no value from that.

Looking to learn what went wrong, what was missing, to see what can be put in, what can be shifted. Do we need to change a system or a process? Or did we have someone that failed to follow a system or process? There’s value in that to creating the future.

Brett McCollum (35:00.098)
Right.

Sanjiv Jain (35:11.254)
You know, I heard this cliche, right? That’s why the rear view mirror in a car is this small, right? And the windshield is this big. You know, it’s, you going to focus on looking at that rear view mirror or are you focusing on the windshield? And we’re excited about creating our future. And that’s, you know, the only way that you let adversity stop you is if you stop.

Brett McCollum (35:16.664)
Yeah.

Brett McCollum (35:24.046)
That’s right.

Sanjiv Jain (35:34.786)
You can look at all these people that have been through any kind of cycle, any kind of hero that you hold, anyone that’s accomplished anything. Across the board, what I have heard is the number one thing is you don’t stop. You don’t stop. You stop, it’s over. I mean, if you read the book Three Feet From Gold, why did they lose and why did someone else all of a sudden make it rich? Because the person stopped. I have thought about stopping.

Brett McCollum (35:34.872)
Right.

Brett McCollum (35:59.15)
That’s right.

Sanjiv Jain (36:05.346)
You know, I’ve got all these stories over these years. We recently went through a horrible fraud that has taken us two years, we still, not even two years quite yet, but we still haven’t fully recovered from it. This cost us hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, right, a fraud that occurred on us. But never, never was there a thought that it’s over. I’m not gonna lie to you. Was there a thought? Yes.

Brett McCollum (36:20.024)
Hmm.

Brett McCollum (36:28.003)
Right.

Sanjiv Jain (36:32.576)
Did it have the ability to stay? Did it have staying power? Could it hold? Absolutely not.

Brett McCollum (36:36.173)
Right.

Right. Man. All right. Well, man, Sanjiv, this, as they say, all good things must come to an I hate to wrap this up like this. We’ll have to have you back on again and do this again because this is so good. Before we do go, if people want to reach out to you in some way and get a hold of you, what’s the best way for people to connect with you?

Sanjiv Jain (36:48.872)
And for now.

Sanjiv Jain (37:03.874)
All right, so my name is Sanjiv Jan and you know what I look like now if you’re watching this podcast. It’s also audio. I’m accessible on Facebook. I’m still old school there, so I’m not on Instagram as much. So just you look up my name, Sanjiv Jan. I’m in Philadelphia. The easiest way to get ahold of me is by texting. My number’s 215-287-5600.

I know over the years many people go, my god, you give your phone number out. Don’t people abuse it? No. You know the majority of people in this world are great people. They don’t abuse things. Yeah, and my email, which I never check, right, but if you send me an email and you want me to check it, you got to text me. It’s Sanjiv.legacy.gmail.com.

Brett McCollum (37:37.742)
Yeah.

You attract the right people. Yep.

Brett McCollum (37:51.042)
Text me, right? Yeah.

Brett McCollum (37:56.174)
Perfect. All right, well guys, you heard it here. I hope you guys go back and re-listen to this and take a lot of value out of it. Adversity happens to all of us. It doesn’t have to be the thing that stops us. And if you’ve gotten anything out of that, that’s what I’m listening to is a man that’s been through this, has been in this industry for 25 years, has went through adversity, went through adversity again.

Went through adversity again and he’s still here to tell the story and dream about the future and be excited. Like I love that. That’s such an inspirational message for all of us to look at. So Sanjiv, I really appreciate you guys taking the time to be with us. yeah, all right guys. I hope you, yes, sorry.

Sanjiv Jain (38:33.942)
Thank you, Brett. you know what? I’m sorry, Brett. The website, our website is legacy, L-E-G-A-C-Y, and then a dash, multifamily.com.

Brett McCollum (38:42.807)
Okay?

Perfect. All right, we’ll make sure we put those all of that in the show notes for everybody. Sanjiv, you’re the best. I really appreciate you taking time to talk with us. All right, guys, hope you enjoy the show.

Sanjiv Jain (38:48.918)
Thank you.

Sanjiv Jain (38:53.889)
My pleasure.