Is the Multifamily Market Bottom In? Southern California Apartment Investing Outlook for 2026

Dean Zander (00:00)
there’s a tremendous amount of cash sitting on the sidelines. there’s a really built up appetite for multifamily. It’s just the investors are super cautious in trying to find a deal that checks all their boxes. And if it doesn’t, they’re a little bit patient waiting to find one that does. I think that the fear factor is being subtly and slowly replaced by greed. and I think that money is coming back into our market in a very

Big way as there’s been just pent up demand that hasn’t been satisfied with the sales volume where it is now. So there’s quite a bit of equity chasing deals.

Dylan Silver (02:00)
Hey folks, welcome back to the show. Today we’re joined by Dean Zander, multifamily broker in Southern California. Dean, thanks for joining us here today.

Dean Zander (02:10)
Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Dylan Silver (02:11)
what types of deals are coming across your desk these days?

Dean Zander (02:15)
today, particularly in Los Angeles, but not at the exclusion of the rest of Southern California, it’s an opportunity for owners who purchased many years ago to perhaps cash out or move their money to other markets that have more favorable regulations. So that’s what we’re seeing most of, particularly in Los Angeles, is long term owners that are a little bit frustrated with rent restrictions and regulations and taxation and mansion tax and things like that have

Crept into our market more and more for the last few years. So it’s really people adjusting their portfolios, adjusting the age of their assets and moving into other markets or other categories to better maximize their returns. So

Dylan Silver (02:55)
It sounds like a lot of selling going on. Is there also momentum buying side?

Dean Zander (03:00)
I’d say there’s more groups that want to be sellers than want to be buyers. The buyers in the market today are cautious and they’re generally thinking that whatever I don’t buy today will be available tomorrow, also. So it’s a less of an urgency on the buyers type. sellers who are on the market today are generally maybe not fed up, but maybe realistically looking to just improve their position in the market and hoping to attract.

A buyer that will recognize the value. but most of the investors hunting around today are looking not as much at this tremendous rent growth that they’re expecting, but more of stabilizing operations, perhaps locking in a better interest rate in the future than they can get today and maybe kind of going down the road with a longer term ownership horizon than they’ve been looking at the past.

Dylan Silver (03:43)
Now when we talk about expectations, of course in the brokerage world we always have to mesh it the expectations of our clients with what the market will bring, right? And in the multifamily side I can imagine this looks like a little bit of a longer process, especially when there may be more selling momentum than buying. what is a standard or typical days on market these days for a multifamily property in Southern California?

Dean Zander (04:12)
it’s interesting. I’ve doing this a long time, coming up on four decades since I got my license, sold my first deal. Actually sold my first deal before I had my license. But the market is kind of looking like that graph in the back of you where it’s the typical it the market increases, improves, then slowly deteriorates a little bit, then improves, and it’s a higher level than it was before. So today, properties are on the market for longer than they had been in the past.

Owners are looking for distressed opportunities, but the distress is generally today not in the operations of the property. maybe the rent growth isn’t as tremendous as it has been, but occupancy is strong, concessions are low because there hasn’t been massive overdevelopment in most markets. It’s really just taking longer to have a deal stick. So what used to be thirty to forty days on the market is becoming sixty to ninety.

Dylan Silver (04:58)
When we talk specifically about what investors are looking for, you mentioned distress. Are investors looking for like, B and C class properties that they can value add and increase the grade of, or are they looking for something else?

Dean Zander (05:14)
I’d say all of the above. There’s still a certain caliber of investor, generally the family offices that are looking for the older value add properties that most institutions and funds are ignoring. And so they’re seeking what they’re hoping for are better opportunities in an overlooked asset class that used to be the bell of the ball. If you had a seventies or early eighties vintage apartment building that hadn’t been touched and you can do the granite counters and the washer dryers, that was kind of the perfect unicorn of a property.

Today there’s less focus on spending another twenty-five or thirty thousand a unit and more on getting in at the right basis. Perhaps you can buy a newer built asset that was over leveraged and wasn’t leasing up to the expectations of the developer, and you can get a pretty sizable discount to the replacement cost. That’s the main focus today is an and an entry point where the basis feels good. And instead of a three to five year investment horizon, it could be a seven to ten plus.

Dylan Silver (06:05)
I’ve seen this a lot from other multifamily investors and brokers that we’ve had on the show. It seems like there was a time period, let’s call it twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen till twenty where you could overpay for the deal, structure it poorly, still make money in three to five years, and we’re certainly in a different type of market now. these longer time horizons, do you see more and more investors at least

Realizing that hey, we might not be able to find a deal that will work in five years, we may have to have more of a conservative exit seven or longer.

Dean Zander (06:41)
It is. I mean the under the investors who are underwriting to a leverage IRR return are adjusting their horizon to go to the full extent of that seven or ten year plan rather than an early exit that they were doing back in the days that you mentioned. and there’s still there’s still quite an appetite to buy these properties, to work on the operations, to try to improve the cash flow, to cut the expenses. It’s just hard to do that when

Taxes are rising, utility costs are rising, insurance costs have finally settled down a little bit, but there’s an appetite to put the money to work and get it to work. The difference is a few years ago, you could make a lot of mistakes and still come out pretty well because you were financing at three percent debt and that debt has doubled. And so that’s really causing the underwriting to make a lot more be a lot more important in your in your in your preparation to make sure you’re really digging into those numbers.

Dylan Silver (08:15)
do you have a sense for what folks are doing once they’ve sold a multifamily property? Are they reallocating that money to another investment? Or right now do you get the sense that there’s a lot of cash sitting on the sidelines?

Dean Zander (08:28)
there’s a tremendous amount of cash sitting on the sidelines. There’s a there’s a really built up appetite for multifamily. It’s just the investors are super cautious in trying to find a deal that checks all their boxes. And if it doesn’t, they’re a little bit patient waiting to find one that does. And I think I think that the fear factor is being subtly and slowly replaced by greed. and that I think that money is coming back into our market in a very

Big way as there’s been just pent up demand that hasn’t been satisfied with the sales volume where it is where it is now. So there’s quite a bit of equity chasing deals. It’s just the right deals and that structure, what that right deal looks like has just it’s just changed a bit in the last few years.

Dylan Silver (09:06)
do you get the sense that that cash sitting on the sidelines is waiting for a market event, like a string of foreclosures, for instance, or insolvency with syndications where they can, work out a deal to effectively get these deals from foreclosure or pre-foreclosure? Or are they simply waiting for, the right deal to come across their desk from a broker or someone in their circle?

Dean Zander (09:31)
Yeah, I mean it’s really a question of an and a desire to find to find the right deal. The dealers that don’t mind owning for three, five, seven, ten years as opposed to a shorter a shorter period. And there’s not really a an expected cataclysmic black swan type of event at this point. It’s more like, okay, we know the long term debt isn’t likely not going back to three and four or even five percent. It’ll be in the high fives to low sixes for quite some time. And depending on what our new Fed chair is up to, that might

That might increase before it decreases. So it’s really a question of what’s the right asset for me and for my portfolio. And the groups who are selling now, I’d say it’s split between all they know is multifamily. And so they’re in the private family world, they’re staying in multifamily, but some of them are a little more nimble and saying, you know what, I don’t mind taking some chips off the table and find me a six and a half cap single tenant retail deal and I’ll put my money in there. It’ll be more like a coupon clipper. And when my family inherits it,

They’ll understand it a lot better and I won’t be so concerned about the regulations. And another chunk of that group that sticks with multifamily is going out of Southern California. They’re going to Phoenix where there’s less restrictions and quite a bit of growth in the AI and the and the tech world. they’re going to Salt Lake, where the job growth market is still compelling. other markets that ha had a boom and bust cycle like the Nashvilles and the Austins that are overbuilt, but probably back in favor, you can get really good

Metrics and a good cost basis on a per unit play. So I think they’re looking at other asset types, other locations, but a whole other sector of them, roughly a third, only really know Southern California and they’ll stick with it even at a lower return because they understand that they can drive by it, they can touch it, then they know the market. They don’t need to learn anything new.

Dylan Silver (11:09)
I want to ask you about the tenant profile. And again, this may be something that may be a little bit off the beaten path when we talk about brokerage, but for folks who are looking at multifamily investing, they’re of course looking at job trends and net migration as well as what companies are coming to the area. You can’t find a hotter area, I think, for most people than Southern California.

So the underwriting of these deals ca can’t simply be based on, well, what’s the job market look like or, you know, where is the economy going? Because it’s one of the strongest economies on the whole in the country. So what factors are investors underwriting these deals to?

Dean Zander (11:52)
they’re really looking at where is the growth? Where can I see rent growth? If the median income in the property is $150,000 and you do the math of what it qualifies to earn and you don’t want people to be paying more than 30% of their income toward rent, but maybe the in-place rents are leave room to suggest that you can increase the rents by eight or ten or twelve percent where there’s not rent control and still fall under that thirty percent bracket.

Then you can you can find some meaningful rent growth if the area average income is the right level. And that’s why the better locations outperform the inferior locations. So I think people are looking at not only migration and job growth and education, but they’re really looking at property by property, what is that average income in that area? Can that area support a meaningful rent increase?

To keep up with keep up with rising expenses and maybe actually return of profit.

Dylan Silver (12:41)
One of the things that I’ve heard from my Florida brokers is that there’s a unique environment in Florida where you have more and more people purchasing condos than really ever before. And this has now become distinct when you look at the Sunbelt as a whole, because especially in South Florida, instead of renting or looking at a single family home, you have more and more people who are like, I want a condo. Do you see condo ownership?

Increasing year to year. What’s the sentiment in Southern California surrounding renting versus owning a condo?

Dean Zander (13:15)
Certainly not in LA and Orange County because the cost burden is far higher for the single family and condo market than the apartment market. That’s the best thing we have going in our favor, is the complete inaffordability of single family or condo. Not to mention most developers who are building today are not building condos. While they might underwrite and pencil better on paper, when you take into effect into account construction defect law and the time to sell out.

You have to be in an area where you can command upwards of probably twelve hundred a foot in sales in order to justify building condos today. That’s kind of math we hear from some developers that were active. Others are doing conversions perhaps from multifamily to condos, but then you still have to hit the requirements of, for example, better than two to one parking, which is tough to get on an older property. So for all those reasons, in LA particularly, there’s very little condo construction and it’s probably a contrarian play today to try to pencil out

Condos because there’s very little competition in the new supply market for condos.

Dylan Silver (14:14)
Hear a lot of multifamily investors saying it’s very difficult to pencil a new construction development for so many reasons. But I can imagine in more highly populated areas where there are more regulations, even more so. what’s your perspective on developers who are looking at new construction opportunities and is it a more challenging market in Southern California, or maybe it am I totally off here?

Dean Zander (15:22)
No, you’re 100% right. I’d say more developers that were active in the last cycle are now segueing into buying Core Plus communities at far below where they could deliver them today. So everyone would like a shiny new building in their portfolio, but when these buildings are selling for a the definite discount to replacement cost, sometimes as much as fifty percent, but in general twenty-five to thirty, it just doesn’t make sense to buy a piece of land, spend two years entitling it and

Getting it out of the ground another year getting at least up and stabilized and then selling it when the comps today don’t support that exit value would need to be. So it’s difficult. It it’s restrictive. the only active pipeline of developing development today is either in areas where the rents can substantiate five fifty a foot perhaps is the number over five dollars a foot in rents or if you’re building

And maximizing the lot and using various incentives to get a very dense affordable product which generally has no parking. Those will be tougher exits, but if you want to build a portfolio of a hundred percent affordable housing, you can pick up these sites for anywhere from 15 to 30,000 a unit. You can squeeze a hundred units on a 15,000 foot lot, go four to six stories stick and with one level maybe of podium for the ground floor, but have no parking.

And have if you get HUD vouchers then you have a home run. If you’re just regular renting to regular affordable, the returns might be less, but that’s the most active development play today.

Dylan Silver (16:45)
I wanna pivot here, Dean, and talk about one of the common sources of distress for multifamily operators, which is management, property management, whether they’re self-managing or delegating this to a third party, frequently this becomes a pain point, even to the point where you might acquire a property because it was poorly managed while on all other surfaces it may be running smoothly. do you see from your vantage point as a broker

Investors who are vertically integrated and doing this themselves having greater success or folks who have a property manager in place having equal or greater success.

Dean Zander (17:24)
the institutionally managed properties, those management companies will always tell you that they can do far better than the mom pop operators, and the mom pop operators will tell you they do far better than the institutional management companies. And they both have their reasons and they both can be right in certain instances. I would say the their mom pop operators are much more focused on their own properties, on their staffing, on their turnover, on their maintenance, and probably run a little bit more lean.

Than the than the institutional operators. but they also don’t take as quick advantage of the market changes and the real pricing that they that the institutions afford through their larger portfolios of kind of what they’re seeing across the spectrum. So day-to-day operations, it would be the smaller the smaller management companies and smaller owners managing a little more efficiently, but over time, the advantage goes to the larger management companies.

Dylan Silver (18:16)
putting you on the spot a little bit here, people always talk about value add, value add, and looking for that opportunity. I’ve seen this manifest in so many different ways. We talked about one, which is property management, but we also talked about granite countertops and I’ve seen so many different types of value add, even in, hey, we’re going to, increase access to certain

Areas repave certain areas and so forth, which would then drive rent growth. Have you seen any one opportunity or any one form of value add that is maybe more common than others?

Dean Zander (18:49)
well let’s talk about what the one that’s the best received that I see short of adding washer dryers, which I think is the number one improvement you can make for return on your buck and for appeal to the most amount of tenants and for retention and for increases, it’s adding washer dryer. But I think the more important one probably over time is adding a hospitality bent to whatever services you provide, whether that’s a concierge to welcome people, coffee machine in the lobby.

Upperscale looking vending machines, valet parking, anything that makes it feel like you’ve arrived when you get home and that’s the place that you want to be, the place you choose to be, not the place you have to be, that hospitality, welcoming environment, I think is really appealing, but the property has to be a certain level to justify it. I’d say 100 units up, class B plus A, and better, in order to justify that expense. But when you can offer that kind of

Experience to a resident, I think your retention goes up tremendously and that’s really important today.

Dylan Silver (19:46)
heard the phrase I own the pool so I can look at it. And people may think, well what’s the purpose there? But it provides a sense of comfort, right? A sense of home, a sense of I’ve arrived, like you mentioned. You don’t necessarily have to be swimming in the pool. You don’t necessarily have to be using the vending machine, but simply walking by it could give you a sense of arrival. I would like to ask you about the other side of this coin here though.

When things go south, and we’ve seen a lot of that here over the past couple of years, certainly, with interest rates doubling in many cases and the cost of labor increasing, as well as you have in some markets difficulty with vacancies. I can imagine Southern California is not that case, but if you if you look at where I’m licensed in Texas, certainly Austin has that issue. Where do you see

Operators experiencing the greatest degrees of distress. Is there any one thing particularly or is it a mix?

Dean Zander (20:41)
I don’t know that the operators are necessarily experiencing distress, particularly in Southern California. There there’s a definite need and the housing inaffordability is creating the demand from the from the residents perspective tends to stay long or take a roommate and figure it out. I think the distress really is simply the debt. I think people put on adjustable rate mortgages a few years ago and three and four percent seemed affordable and all of a sudden it resets and it’s now six.

And their cash flow gets crimped and then their loan comes due and they don’t have the equity to refinance. That really affects their ability to, hold on. We haven’t seen a distressed foreclosure market at all like we did during any of the other cycles I’ve experienced. The lenders are being a little bit more patient, they’re extending the terms. the borrowers are a little bit more liquid, and so they’re putting a little more cash in.

Anecdotally, I own a building that I bought many years ago that I’d never put more than 50% debt on any of my properties, and I had a five-year loan at 3.11. and it was a 50% loan. And when it came time for me to refinance, that 50% LTV was 72% because the value of the property dropped that much that when you went from a 3.1 to a 5.98, it didn’t feel so great. Fortunately, because my position was

Fine in the property, it could absorb that, but if you can imagine if you over-leveraged that property and you came up to that kind of interest rate adjustment, that’s where the distress is.

Dylan Silver (21:56)
do you see you mentioned banks being willing to work with the investors and potentially extending? Do you think that this is maybe reactionary, not looking recently, but looking back over the global housing crisis and thinking we don’t want to own these, multifamily properties. We’d rather work this out with folks than be the ones that are in charge of figuring out what to do with this asset.

Dean Zander (22:21)
I don’t know that they’re afraid to own them anymore. They have plenty of experience going through that cycle of what that look like. And they have operations set up and departments set up to handle that and professionals in place. And the, biggest lenders, are agency between Fannie and Freddie and HUD. And so you have a different type of lender more dominant today in the market. and I think that they’re willing to work with the right borrower who’s willing to go along with them and put a little more equity in and

Completely share the operations and what the experience is. But if an owner comes to a lender and says, listen, I can’t afford to pay this down. I’m not gonna put any more money in and you’ll have to do something, mark my loan down. There’s that’s a hard no. They will foreclose on that. I don’t think there’s any fear of that at all. So but like I say, the it’s not the operations now. It’s not the occupancy now. It’s really just the debt. And the way to solve the debt is with a little more equity. And I think people are more willing to do that.

Dylan Silver (23:10)
to that point, there is some level of surprise I would say myself and some others that we’re not seeing a wave of foreclosures, but I do think that to your earlier point, there there’s many markets where you’re not gonna see that and even some that you may think this could potentially be the case. I tend to think after speaking with more and more folks like yourself that banks will when possible work things out with their investors.

Dean Zander (23:36)
Yeah, I agree. I mean we’re that’s one of the reasons we’re not seeing so many foreclosures that we might as we might expect. but I do think that if that bank doesn’t see an operator willing to contribute the equity and a little more cash into the deal, that they will foreclose. But I think most of them are most of these investors are liquid enough and patient enough and believe in the real estate enough that they’re willing to kind of recommit to their own asset rather than risk.

Losing it and affecting their credit and their ability to borrow again and take those lumps. So I don’t really think we’re experiencing a kick the can down the road like we were before. That you have to meaningfully put some equity in order to make the deal work. Or you do a cash in refi, which is not unheard of and most people are willing to do that if they most of them still believe in their in their real estate. And most apartment owners are, they love their business and they love what they do and they love the returns it’s provided them. So when it takes time

When it comes time to take a few lumps, they’re ready.

Dylan Silver (24:28)
Ask you about the buying side. there’s a lot of folks who will regularly talk about where they’re finding their properties, the acquisitions channel. And they’ll talk about going direct to seller, they’ll talk about their relationship with a broker, they’ll also talk about their sphere and the people around them. you’re a broker, so I’m sure you have a perspective on this. For buyers.

What’s the best way where they can find the deal, the diamond in the rough? How can buyers find that deal?

Dean Zander (24:56)
it’s really by keeping in touch with the active brokers in that market, the brokers that they know or that they heard of or that they see some of their marketing and they say, Hey, I saw you had this building for sale. It’s not really perfect for me. Let me tell you what I’d love to find. But like I say, there’s no shortage of buyers. It’s just buyers who are willing to step up and actually perform and meet a seller’s expectation. And so it’s but th those buyers that are active and interested.

They reach out, they reach out every day. Some of them say, Send me anything you have that’s better than a seven cap, and that person doesn’t get a return call. There’s no owners that I know of in Southern California that need to or would ever sell. They would say, my gosh, at that offer, I’ll buy everything I can. So that’s kind of where there’s a stalemate, the buyer that is anticipating distress or waiting on the sidelines to see cap rates go to that level. I don’t think we’re I don’t think we’re ever gonna see that. So

But I do think that those investors who are serious and want to, buy the right property at the best value that they can, they should be in touch with a local broker or regional broker that handles that kind of property and that in that space they want to be in, whether that’s B plus value add or core plus type properties, whatever it is, and reach out to those to those brokers. Another string of investors sometimes reach out to a broker and ask them to send unsolicited offers. Maybe they drove by

A property or they heard of an owner doing some kind of recapitalization or some kind of trigger event. They say, Hey, how well do you know XYZ? Are you willing to send someone some unsolicited offers? And I’ve done that many times successfully in the past.

Dylan Silver (26:22)
I I’ve had very many investors, syndicators, family offices talk about capital being the bottleneck that is stopping them from acquiring more deals. And interestingly, recently I had

Someone with a Wall Street background talk about well one of the ways where you can get access to capital kind of in a contrarian way is through relationships with brokers, right? If you have the deal, the broker often knows where the money will come from. What’s your perspective on, folks who may feel like their capital stack is maxed out and they want to know where to get, the next round of funding from, or they’re looking for bigger ways to finance their deals.

Dean Zander (27:01)
some of these investors have formed their own fund for that reason. Maybe they contribute only five or seven percent to the fund, but they go out there with their track record and they raise funds from groups, whether it’s, private individuals that are willing to put up a hundred, two hundred, two fifty, whatever it is into a deal, or a larger fund that commits in the seven figure and eight figure arena too to different funds. but yes, I mean if someone came to me and said, Hey, I’ve got this great deal under contract and I love it,

My partner backed away, I’m a little bit short of equity. There might be a marriage, a match that you can make with the right investor. Generally, unless you’re a fund investing in another fund, everybody wants control. Nobody wants to be told, hey, it’s time to sell or it’s time to replace the roof. They really want to have a little more control. So unless you’re investing in a syndication as a limited partner and you know right away you’re having no control, if someone comes to you with a deal, you generally want to have some aspect of

Who’s running the show, how much do I trust them? And it what say will I have in operations? And generally if someone’s coming to you with a deal like that, you have very little say. So there’s an element of investor who that’s fine for.

Dylan Silver (28:04)
I wanna dig in there, get a little bit granular if we can here. In the in these types of situations, if someone is somehow able to develop rapport with a seller, and I’m not saying this is hundreds of doors, but if it’s fifty doors or if it’s twenty-five doors, is there a assignment of contract, a wholesale market if you will, for commercial deals? Does that ever happen?

Where someone could find the deal, put up some type of earnest money and then assign that to an investor before closing.

Dean Zander (28:34)
Sure. I mean that’s it’s very possible. I haven’t seen a deal like that recently, but I’m sure that they’ve happened, where someone will find a property, quote unquote, tie it up, put up a little bit of deposit, start their due diligence, but then say, I think I can make X dollars on this and not have to have any risk and flip it to someone that wants to have a different ownership horizon, and find that person in that short window of time.

They would have to have the right to assign that contract. Most sellers are not going to be very thrilled that they’re getting I wouldn’t call it played, but that they’re that there’s a double escrow in a sense or a flip in a sense. If they were happy with their price on day one, hopefully they’re happy with their price on day two. But it’s not unheard of. It’s just very it’s very uncommon that there’s enough spread in the pricing that someone’s able to get that they can flip it for a higher number.

Dylan Silver (29:19)
from the perspective of banks, are banks now more cautious when it comes to dealing with newer funds and syndicators and investors based off their experience over the last couple of years? Are they more likely to do deals with folks that they’ve previously done deals with now?

Dean Zander (29:36)
No, yeah, they’re much more favorable to investors that already have a track record with them. If it’s a bank that, has some assets with that bank, has some accounts with them, has some experience with them, that the bank’s comfortable with their management, with their operations, with their liquidity, with their structure as a whole. So whether it’s agency or bank debt, it’s or a fund, it’s really important to have that track record. a new investor coming to a lender,

And just looking for debt, the debt will be more expensive. It’ll be much more hurdles to jump through. They’ll underwrite and evaluate every single line item of the operating statement as well as a liquidity sheet. So yes, the more experience you have with a particular lender, the more likely you are, and more sense it makes to stick with that lender.

Dylan Silver (30:15)
it’s interesting ’cause it it’s easy to reflect back and realize how things were. But during that string of time it was kind of like a gold rush for development, for brokerage, right, on all sides, especially when it came to multifamily. And we’re seeing a kind of cooling off of that and we have been for several years. no one’s got a crystal ball, but if we have this conversation a year from now, do you think we’ll still be having a similar one or do you think there’ll be more buyers at that point?

Dean Zander (30:41)
No, I think we’ll look back and say we were pretty much at the bottom and we’re on our way up, that we’ve already hit bottom, that the pricing there’s been enough comps to suggest where that pricing actually is and where it’s going. And I think it’s improving kind of daily from here on out. So I think a year from now we’ll look back and say I probably should have pulled the trigger on that deal back in, September first of twenty six.

Dylan Silver (31:02)
we are coming up on time here, Dean. Any new projects or activities that you’re working on these days or also anything you’d like to mention directly to our audience?

Dean Zander (31:12)
right now my most exciting project that I’m marketing is a portfolio of three properties for the original developer in the San Fernando Valley. it’s a little over a hundred units, average built is 1990, all two bedrooms, condo map in place, kind of to our point before about condo development. that’s a pretty exciting opportunity for the right long-term holder or perhaps condo investor. I make myself available to anyone who has.

Questions or wants to bounce anything off me, whether you’re starting out as a broker or you’re an investor or you’re expanding or contracting your ownership, certainly I I’m available in doing this for quite some time and enjoy what I do still. So I’m always available.

Dylan Silver (31:49)
Dean, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for your time.

Dean Zander (31:52)
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.