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Show Summary
In this episode of the Real Estate Pros podcast, host Erika interviews Jennifer Thurston, a real estate professional with a unique focus on land conservation. Jennifer shares her journey into the world of real estate and land conservation, discussing the importance of sustainable business models that allow for the preservation of land while also generating income. She highlights creative approaches to land use, the incentives available for land conservation, and the future projects she is excited about, including a wellness retreat center. The conversation emphasizes the potential for innovative land use strategies that benefit both the environment and the community.
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Investor Fuel Show Transcript:
Jennifer Thurston (00:00)
Okay, so what are we now doing on that 40 acres is we have shifted from just a few cows and some hay that they were doing to an organic food production process, but we’re also doing it through research. So there are grants available for food production research to help us kickstart and develop new varieties, biodiverse.for a new market in Durango. We also have an Airbnb on the property for experiential hospitality. So that’s another rent. We have a long-term rental on the property also. there can be buildings on these properties. ⁓ 36 acres is left as conservation, but in four acres we have a building envelope to do these things. We also run education programs off of that.
So there’s different revenue streams coming in to support the property.
Erika (02:29)
Hey everyone, welcome to the Real Estate Pros podcast. I’m your host Erika and today I’m excited to have Jennifer Thurston on the show with me today. She’s doing something really unique in the real estate world that we don’t talk about too often. And it’s that she has a real passion for conserving land. Jennifer, it’s awesome to have you on the show today.Jennifer Thurston (02:53)
Good morning, thank you.Erika (02:54)
Yeah, it’s great to have you here and Jennifer, I would love for you to kick us off and tell us how this journey got started for you. How did you become passionate about conserving land and how did that tie into real estate?Jennifer Thurston (03:10)
Well, I started on, ⁓ I work on a project that’s mostly my family land that was acquired starting in 1978 south of Durango, Colorado. And we gathered up quite a few parcels and acreages. And the biggest part that shifted it for me to become a real estate professional and to create a project based onacquisition of property, renovating them, renting them, and putting them into this conservation easement began because of estate succession of land amongst the family. And it is a very serious issue in the United States at this point in time as most farmers and ranchers are all in our elder stages and we have large tracts of land.
then we might not have a next generation that is interested in farming that land and working with that land.
And yet we still have no desire to really lose the land, to watch it be developed. creating a process and a model for people to be able to conserve that land, keep it in its open state while also having it available for succession to the next generation.
but also making it profitable and part of a sustainable business model. And even if it’s not the person that owns the land at this time, you could be that real estate person to step in and say, look, I’m going to help you do this. And either we do it in a partnership, or maybe I’m going to acquire your land. ⁓
but this is what I want to do with it. And they’re much more willing to sell it to you because you are conserving it. Because they wouldn’t have gotten into farming, ranching, or any land-orientated process if they didn’t love land. So that’s one of the things that we want to, you know, is important about it. So it’s been a mini year. I mean, technically started DSM Land LLC in 2010.
⁓ it became very apparent that I was going to need to come up with a model to deal with my seven other siblings, my six other siblings, in this real estate succession process.
Erika (06:31)
Yeah, wow, that’s yeah, it makes a lot of sense that when it comes to someone selling a property and if they bought it for the land that they’re considering that them when they when they go sell that. ⁓ Do you help kind of match match those two parties up or what is that like?Jennifer Thurston (06:51)
I personally haven’t worked extensively in that, but I do work with a land trust and I do work with what are called land access organizations. Colorado Land Link, Colorado Guidestone, La Plata Open Space Conservancy is my land trust. So I help through them, they’ve come across people that are looking for this kind of model. And so through them, I help.give them my example and show this is what I think you should be, how we can make this work for you. Because you do have to end up thinking outside the box. You have to think, okay, what is a sustainable business model that can then sustain, be created to sustain that land for many generations down the way? Since farming might not have been it, most people think then the only thing you can do is do a subdivision or a development.
or strip mall or something. And it’s like, no, let’s think about, we’ve got agroforestry, we’ve got experiential hospitality, we have mental health therapies, if it’s depending. And that’s what we operate on all of our acres is multiple different businesses that can coexist and work together, but keeping the land conserved through those processes. And they’re different than what the land has been doing for
up until this point, but that means we just have to be more creative. Don’t get, ⁓ it’s only grown corn, so you can only grow corn or soybeans or whatever or hay, and it’s like, no, we can think outside that box.
Erika (08:30)
Yeah, that is really fascinating and also really exciting for the different kinds of opportunities there. Jennifer, can you share some examples with your own experience where some of these creative ideas have come about?Jennifer Thurston (08:44)
Yeah, so as our first 180 acres went into conservation easement in 2022, ⁓ what made it able to happen is first of all, it is conservation worthy property. That’s most important. It’s a major wildlife corridor ⁓ just south of, you know, big city of Durango andIt has scenic views. also has ⁓ archaeological sites and Native American traditions on that land. But we had to get at least 180 acres to make our first start. And once the last 40 acres that we acquired to put into that 180 were held by a couple who were farming the 40, retired, and were very happy to hear
that we would acquire their 40 acres and keep it in conservation and keep it in agriculture.
So we were able to negotiate a very reasonable price to purchase that property because it was something that they felt good about, even though the three sons that they had were not interested in the land and that was especially it. So a lot of negotiations, but usually, as I say, the people who own land of large,
or we’re farmers, they do it. We don’t farm because we like farming per se. It’s more of a lifestyle. It is something that you do because you really, you have a passion for. It’s too hard and it’s too frustrating or something to do just because. So then the land is one of those key elements that keep people farming because that attraction to the land.
Confirm to them, okay, we’re going to keep your land.
Okay, so what are we now doing on that 40 acres is we have shifted from just a few cows and some hay that they were doing to an organic food production process, but we’re also doing it through research. So there are grants available for food production research to help us kickstart and develop new varieties, biodiverse.
for a new market in Durango. We also have an Airbnb on the property for experiential hospitality. So that’s another rent. We have a long-term rental on the property also. there can be buildings on these properties. ⁓ 36 acres is left as conservation, but in four acres we have a building envelope to do these things. We also run education programs off of that.
So there’s different revenue streams coming in to support the property.
We were able to pay off a majority of the debt on that property once we purchased it, at least 50%, because of the sale of Colorado Conservation Tax Credits. That’s an amazing revenue stream. That’s where I say that Colorado is an incentive state. It provides major incentive to encourage people to put land into conservation.
as it’s been rapidly developing over the last 25 years in Colorado. And so they’re making it an incentive to try and prevent every 40 acre, every farmland and everything. Now, it does have to have some conservation value. You can’t just pick a 40 acre piece out in the middle of the grasslands with no conservation threat and expect to do this kind of process. That, you you do have to choose
lands that are conservation worthy. So hopefully that answered your question. ⁓
Erika (13:07)
Yeah, when you were talking about the tax credits there related to land conservation, are you aware of other states that are offering this too besides Colorado? Colorado is where your land is, correct?Jennifer Thurston (13:21)
Correct. So I’m in Durango, Colorado. Yes, there are other incentive states. New Mexico is increasing their incentive. California has always had a good incentive state. Much of the Midwest is now also stepping in through what they call agricultural land conservation spaces. recognize, ⁓ and if it’s not specifically the state, there are organizations. Now,If you do vast tracts ⁓ of land, ⁓ nature conservancy, the conservation fund, they don’t generally support private conservation. They’re out to do a lot more public spaces. ⁓ And that is a big difference is land conservation and a private conservation easement does not mean you have given it to the public. That’s a misnomer.
They think that only once you conserve it, everybody can walk out. It’s like, no, that’s public conservation. Their private conservation easements means you’re just conserving the line. You don’t have to let people on it. We do because it becomes a revenue stream. So we have focused public access is the term where we can control who is coming on and off of the land. But it is a revenue production for us because we allow that.
But you don’t have to. ⁓ But there are quite a few states or organizations, cattlemen’s, they do a lot up in Montana, the Cattlemen’s Association. So there are a lot of people, ⁓ organizations that back any conservation if your state isn’t a conservation incentive state. But most of them have some incentives. Colorado has increased theirs in desperation to get more people to conserve land.
And ⁓ it’s great. ⁓ Then you also, the federal deductions are always there. So you can monetize the state credits, the federal deductions for an investor for me. If they have a large capital gains coming in from a lot of real estate transactions, we’re able to provide them with the federal deductions because ⁓ as a payback option for them.
And then the other is ⁓ being able to also take tax deductions and depreciation and everything that go along with agricultural businesses is why in the past many large corporations and stuff would get into agriculture because there’s a lot of tax benefits for it. So there’s many tax advantages to get into this process, but also
But one of the next most important questions is people ask, how do they exit back out of it? So the exit strategy ⁓ really is the current rising population, younger generation coming up, has ⁓ great interest in getting reconnected to land and connection. So you may not be.
reselling your easement, you can sell them. It’s not like you can’t sell them. They just come as what they call an encumbered property. But there is a greater interest for someone that is now 25 as they move towards 30 or whatever to get onto land rather than go live in a condo again or go live in a townhouse. They get stuck in that. They think that’s the only thing they can do. But this is an opportunity for them to get back.
onto land, even though they are not from a of land owners.
Erika (17:47)
Yeah, this really is an exciting opportunity. let’s say someone has a hundred acres of land or, you know, they’re looking at a plot of land that’s that big. How do they determine if it’s a good fit for conserving that land?Jennifer Thurston (18:07)
Well, almost all around the country there are land trusts or as I say these organizations, the Cattlemen’s Association or the USDA Land Conservation Organization. That would be the first place to ask, to say, you know, how does this piece track of land, I see this track of land, I know I could get it for a reasonable price. Is that going to fit?in a conservation easement approval. And it does have to be approved. Not your opinion is what matters. The state or the land trust, they are the ones that, because they’re the ones that are gonna pay for conserving it. So they have to approve it. That’s where you would start and just say, I have this track. What do you think of this one? And then if it is, then you go to, all right, but what can I do for the sustainable…
revenue stream that even if I’m not on it I could either hire somebody or some I could get a partnership into an ad production or hospitality or You know rare breeds being raised on a small scale livestock instead of massive scale livestock You know you then start to say what is my market around me so
Fortunately in my case is Durango the area has about 57,000 people. So there’s a strong market for consumption of food products. It’s also a tourist area. So hospitality is a very prominent place. So you have to look what your markets are around. But you could also create some of the experiential hospitality people developing in the middle of Tennessee.
getting the opportunity to be in a tree house up on the top of a mountain and you’ve conserved the 150 acres around it, people are very attracted to go to that retreat in that remote space. And that’s a great example of a similar project, I didn’t do it, that someone else has done and recognize that privacy, that kind of experience in their…
someone else’s now Airbnb experience, people are seeking that, and especially the next generation coming.
Erika (20:33)
Yeah, yeah, there’s a, I’m sure as you know, there’s a lot of Airbnb, Airbnb places you can go to now, but you know, a lot of the success, it boils down to what that experience is like. So that goes hand in hand with the, with the uniqueness of ⁓ the land that you’re talking about here.Jennifer Thurston (20:54)
Correct. And again, you just have to be thinking differently than anybody else. ⁓ have been that the story, a little bit of my life story is in 1980, I was part of a project associated with Colorado State University and the University of Denver ⁓ in bringing quinoa to the Colorado agriculture.Well, in 1980, nobody could even pronounce the word quinoa. Nobody knew what it is. But now it is something that even people in the market are so surprised how quickly it developed into consumption. And everybody knows of it, good or bad. You might not like it. So you have to be willing to think something very unique, like introducing quinoa in 1980.
like building a tree house in the middle for an Airbnb, but you know, a very fancy tree house for an Airbnb in the middle of Tennessee.
Erika (22:02)
Yeah, wow, these are some really, really creative, creative things that are, you know, blazing a new trail. Jennifer, when it comes to what you have going on with land conservation, what’s on the horizon for you? What projects are you excited about?Jennifer Thurston (22:19)
So we just are adding an additional 40 or 75 acre tract to the north of our current easement. ⁓ And we’re renovating a 5,000 square foot residence. And this is where I’m going to talk a little bit about financing. It has been very interesting, ⁓ very creative financing. And ⁓ certainly have had to go to private lenders.⁓ Most, again, banks and things don’t find this to be that fits their little check boxes of exactly, ⁓ you know, how much income because you don’t know how much income you’re going to make because you’re doing something that nobody’s ever done before in terms of I’m going to create this wellness and retreat center, which is what we’re putting this 5,000 square foot residence into. ⁓ And it is, you know, it’s again,
Yes, we can kind of estimate this is what we’re going to be using it for, but it is very unique. having to get connected with private lenders, ⁓ create ⁓ good business plans of thinking of what the business. So we’re also putting agroforestry on our 36 acre sod farm, which is creating then a more biodiverse as well as a diverse
market stream, we’ll still be able to harvest sod, but now we’re going to look to nuts and timber trees for a very long-term vision of what is a return ⁓ on that property. ⁓ So I’m really looking forward to getting our wellness and retreat center on this next 75 acres that are very conservation worthy for both archaeological and wildlife zones. ⁓ It’s also a scenic view.
So it matches conservation ⁓ value because I’m adding it into mine. It’ll be much easier. But again, there’s a couple other locations within the county that ⁓ I think we could be running a similar project on in the area of 400 acre tract. So our complete project for this one, we’ll finish out at about seven to 800 acres.
Erika (24:36)
That is really exciting. when you were talking about the 5,000 square foot residence, is that going to become the Wellness Center or were those two separate projects?Jennifer Thurston (24:46)
Right.Now, yeah, that will become the Wellness Center gathering location. It’s a very unique architectural structure that was easy. It’s going to be easily transitioned into a retreat. It was built in 1980 as a place to gather people together, even though it was a two person residence. It has big open spaces, lots of large kitchen, you know, space that plus
It’s very remote in terms of, yes, we’re only four miles out of town. We’re 15 minutes from the airport, but you get onto this piece of property and it feels like ⁓ you’re in the middle of nowhere. So ⁓ it has a lot of ⁓ opportunities to develop into that retreat. It’s not a stretch at all. Again, very fortunate to have that opportunity to…
to get this property and to do that. Again, I’m not saying every household that you’re going to be able to purchase on land is going to be ideal for this, again, this works. it is again, it’s a separate business from the equine center. It’s a separate business from the sod farm, from the organic food production. So we have all of these various businesses running on various tracks that are all then held by one real estate holding company. And we are able to then…
sell partnerships within to these operations as a revenue stream, exit as they can sell out their partnerships. My sons then have the opportunity to either come back to the farm and do these things or not. They could be continuing their careers elsewhere and then hire people to run these, but they will be still holding all the land. They did not have to give up the land in order for these things to happen.
Erika (26:40)
Yeah. Wow, Jennifer, this has been such an insightful conversation. And I think you’ve really inspired a lot of listeners with what’s possible with their land. If someone listening today wants to connect, reach out, maybe they’re interested in a partnership, what’s the best way for them to reach you?Jennifer Thurston (27:00)
⁓ You can email me is the best way ⁓ and I don’t know if I’m allowed to tell you my email. ⁓ Well, yeah, so email [email protected] and the reason we are the project is called ⁓ Project Weaselskin Skin because this was an area where the Southern Ute family and clan of weasel skins hadresided for many years. ⁓ And so it is just kind of called an area like you might call an area of something like, that’s South End or that’s Aurora or something. So this area is generally, historically had been called the Weaselskin Skin area. And so we just ⁓ feel that it’s respectful to continue that call of the land. That’s what it’s been called. ⁓
So [email protected] ⁓ DSM Land LLC is the real estate company. It’s a Colorado company.
And then we have various other businesses that run ⁓ on them. It’s not hard to find me. am ⁓ Durango Stele kind of a small town. So if you have an opportunity to come to Durango, it is a tourist oriana.
orientated area but we also have experiential hospitality for you out on Project Weaselskin Skin.
Erika (28:31)
And it’s so cool that you are keeping the name and the history there too, Jennifer. Thanks again for being on the show. Really appreciate it.Jennifer Thurston (28:40)
Well, thank you for having me because as I grew up and first started this project, it was definitely viewed that land conservation and real estate business were on two separate sides. And now I definitely feel that the power of being able to use real estate business models like buy, renovate, rent, refinance, you know, and do it again. ⁓fit in putting land into conservation. So there is a way to have both of them happen at the same time. And it’s been a process of trying to convince others that you can do that without having to be Ted Turner, Jack Malone, or Bill Gates.
Erika (29:26)
We’re happy to share that message on the podcast today. And for our listeners, if you got value from this episode, make sure that you’re subscribed to the Real Estate Pros podcast. We’ve got more conversations lined up with pros like Jennifer, who are out there building fantastic and sustainable real estate businesses. We’ll see you on the next episode.
