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Show Summary
In this conversation, Dylan Silver interviews Allen Bosbyshell, a commercial investor with experience in property management and real estate investing in Chicago and Atlanta. Allen shares his journey from managing properties in Chicago to investing in multifamily properties in Atlanta. He discusses the differences in real estate markets between the two cities, the rise of multifamily housing in Atlanta, and his unique ‘build slow’ investment strategy. Allen also offers advice for new investors looking to enter the multifamily space.
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Investor Fuel Show Transcript:
Allen Bosbyshell (00:00)
Absolutely. And by build slow, just to clarify for your audience, I made a confession before we got on that ⁓ I have not raised capital, used other people’s capital. I’ve been using my own savings from my own.jobs and investments, which is the slow way to do it. And it’s not what normal real estate people would recommend. So works for me, but it is definitely for someone like me who doesn’t want to become a capital raising networking influencer type. just, you you gotta know your strengths and weaknesses. Mine is not going to be online presence. Just sorry.
Dylan Silver (02:07)
Hey folks, welcome back to the show. Today’s guest, Allen Bosbyshell is a commercial investor in Atlanta and Chicago with Bosbyshell Realty and Consulting. Allen, welcome to the show.Allen Bosbyshell (02:07)
Hey folks, welcome back to the show. Today’s guest, Allen Bosbyshell is a commercial investor in Atlanta and Chicago with Bosbyshell Realty and Consulting. welcome to the show.Thank you. Thank you. Great to be here. Great to have you on here. Great to meet you. I always like to start off at the top of this show, Allen, by asking guests how they got started in real estate. Absolutely. When I was young,
Dylan Silver (02:23)
Great to have you on here, great to meet you. I always like to start off at the top of this show, Allen, by asking guests how they got started in real estate.Allen Bosbyshell (02:35)
I decided to get a degree in urban planning. And usually that would lead you to a government job, but instead that led me to a couple nonprofits, other than managing Chicago Housing Authority buildings. So not quite the city of Sharrow, but it put me straight into property management in what I would consider the hard version of property management. And that’s kind of how I got started. So property management, was that in Chicago at that point in time? Yep, for Chicago Housing Authority.Dylan Silver (02:56)
So property management, was that in Chicago at that point in time?So I’m
Allen Bosbyshell (03:03)
I’m imagining that’s hundreds and hundreds of doors.Dylan Silver (03:03)
imagining that’s hundreds and hundreds of doors.Allen Bosbyshell (03:06)
My first building was 200 doors. My second building was 344 doors. But yeah, these are towers. Like in Atlanta, there will be a apartment community that could be 500, but it’s walk-ups with parking, whatever. This is like a 22-story, 10 units per floor tower ⁓ full of seniors or whatever. Yeah.Dylan Silver (03:29)
Yeah, walkAllen Bosbyshell (03:31)
Walk me through what that’s like. Chicago’s another animal entirely, by the way. I feel like it’s one of the coldest cities there is in the United States. before we dive into that, what’s property management like, generally speaking, inDylan Silver (03:31)
me through what that’s like. Chicago is another animal entirely, by the way. I feel like it’s one of the coldest cities there is in the United States. before we dive in, dive into that, what’s property management like, generally speaking, in Chicago?Allen Bosbyshell (03:44)
Chicago? Oh, it’s great if you love property management. You have to love people because it’s a lot of…You know, I’m good at the numbers. I’m good at organizing a building. I’m good at spreadsheets. I’m good at reporting. I’m, I, I’m good at the modern property management, but in Chicago, there’s still the, random nutcase mentally ill bribery scandal accusations. So I remember in my first week at this, this was a senior building, Chicago housing authority. they’re all older. So they’re not used to modern whatever. There’s kind of a thing in Chicago where.
you bribe people. like my first week, everyone came in with like a weird gift of some sort that I did not want at all. Or someone would be like, I, I fix watches. I will fix your watch. And I’m like, I don’t even, this watch has never worked. Don’t care. But then this, this one older lady, she at 7.30 AM brought in a hot plate of spaghetti from her, from her unit and was like, yeah, here.
Here you go. Whatever you need, Mr. Property Manager. Here’s your breakfast. Brought you hot plate of spaghetti. And it just seemed upside down and wacky. And it’s that weird decision that me as a younger person had to make of if I leave that plate of spaghetti there and she comes back later and sees it’s cold, you’ve insulted her. if I just write, you can’t do that. And if I just throw it away and get rid of it and she comes back later and
Dylan Silver (05:07)
What do you do?Allen Bosbyshell (05:12)
thinks I ate it, well you’ve accepted the bribe and you now owe her one. So what do you do? But it was fun when I was young.Dylan Silver (05:21)
I can imagine at that point in time, Allen, were you looking at a career in commercial investing? Was that on the horizon for you?Allen Bosbyshell (05:21)
I can imagine at that point.time, Allen, were you looking at a career in
commercial investing? that on the horizon?
Yes, all the knowledge I gained from property management gave me the idea, as many have had, of I should buy my own properties. then Chicago is a great place to start out and do that. My very first property was a four unit, really five unit, ⁓ in Chicago that I bought with my own savings because I was determined to get into real estate myself, my own buildings, my own thing. I already know how to manage it myself, which I did for years.
So those those worked out well, but I think yeah, you’re right That’s what gave me the impetus to actually become a real estate investor is do this but for yourself instead of for a job. So yeah Now What was the process like of acquiring that first deal was it in Chicago was it in Atlanta? know breaking into multifamily specifically is no easy task. I Started small it was only five units, but that first deal it
Dylan Silver (06:53)
Now, what was the process like of acquiring that first deal? Was it in Chicago? Was it in Atlanta? I know ⁓ breaking into multifamily specifically is no easy task.Allen Bosbyshell (07:11)
It was… I think it was my 10th offer. So I intentionally started in the winter when prices are lower, maybe October-ish. And I think I… my first offer got passed, you know, being accepted in like January. Maybe that was my fourth and fifth offer. But then January through March, offers were accepted, but something in the inspection made me pull out, so nothing worked. So…And then finally, I think it was my 10th offer. was about April-ish. The offer was accepted and the inspection came out fine and I actually decided to buy it. And then that’s when it went through. So you don’t, ⁓ you don’t call a realtor and tour a house this weekend and make an offer the next week and you’re done. ⁓ if you do, if I’m sure that’s happened to someone, but not to me, though I was being picky as well. So to be fair, I was being, I was turning down things where the inspection showed.
things I did not want deal with. That deal was in Chicago? Correct. was in, gosh, between Ashland and Damon, 5,600s out. I’m not too familiar with the Chicago area. And for our audience who may not be familiar with Chicago, are there specific areas or the surrounding areas of Chicago where multifamily, small multifamily, maybe a fourplex up to an eightplex?
Dylan Silver (08:08)
That deal was in Chicago.So I’m not too familiar with the Chicago area. And for our audience who may not be familiar with Chicago, are there specific areas or the surrounding areas of Chicago where multifamily, small multifamily, maybe a fourplex up to an eightplex
is maybe more feasible or more likely to come across than other areas?
Allen Bosbyshell (08:34)
is maybe more feasible or more likely to come across another area.You’re right. I’m from the South, so I should describe this how a Southerner would understand it. There’s not like houses. There’s not like a windy road with houses and front yards in the city of Chicago. There is in the suburbs. In the city, it’s a grid and basically ⁓ walk up two flats, three flats we call them. They’d be called duplexes or triplexes in the South.
And you can buy with a residential loan, you can buy up to a four flat, which is four units stacked on top of each other. And you can do that with a residential loan, which is amazing. And then when you get into multifamily in Chicago, which is technically five and up, it goes up to a 500 units super block that takes up four city blocks and is a mess.
Dylan Silver (09:11)
Hmm. Yeah.Allen Bosbyshell (09:25)
but it could also just be a 10 unit that’s kind of like a double wide, meaning it’s four, four and two basements or something like that. So there’s a huge range of what multifamily is in Chicago. And I think when most people think about starting real estate investment, they are imagining what would look more like the Chicago suburbs where it’s like, buy a single family, fix it up, sell or rent. Buy another one, fix it up, sell or rent, refinance, keep going. You could totally do that in Chicago, but it’s…more, everything is more multifamily-esque in Chicago. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, it’s a huge hub, and not just for one industry, but for everything. I do want to ask you about being cold in Chicago, because I lived in Boston for years. I’ve told this story before, and I thought it was so cold in Boston. I lived up there for like five or six years. This was around 2017, and I want to say there were
Dylan Silver (09:56)
Yeah, I can I can imagine. mean, it’s a huge hub. And not not just for one industry, but for for everything. ⁓ I do want to ask you about being cold in Chicago, because I lived in Boston for years. I’ve told this story before. And I thought it was so cold in Boston. I lived up there for like five or six years. This was around 2017. And I want to say there were itwas so cold in Boston. I was like, it can’t be any colder than this. It was like borderline disaster.
Allen Bosbyshell (10:21)
It was so cold in Boston. was like, can’t be any colder than this. was like borderline disaster.Dylan Silver (10:26)
And then Chicago was so cold, apparently, that the Chicago River froze. There were photos online of like, is this the current shit city of Chicago? Or is this New York City from the movie The Day After Tomorrow? And it was like that cold in Chicago. So was it like that cold all the time in Chicago?Allen Bosbyshell (10:26)
And then Chicago was so cold, apparently, that the Chicago River froze. There were photos online of like, is this the current shit city of Chicago? Or is this New York City from the movie The Day After Tomorrow? And it was like that cold in Chicago. So was it like that cold all the time in Chicago?Ironically, you now live in Santa Domingo, which is probably never cold. yeah, my first year in Chicago, we had the polar vortex where it went to like negative 20, the second or third week that I moved up there from Georgia. So I just decided if I survive this negative 20 polar vortex, which is probably the week you’re talking about, it was like late 2018 or something. That’s if I survive this, then I’m good. And I survived that. So I just stayed.
Dylan Silver (11:26)
NERICAL.Allen Bosbyshell (11:48)
But only the winters are that bad. The summers are actually like, beautiful. Summer’s great.Dylan Silver (11:54)
Yeah, you just got to survive the winter in the property management space. I can I know for Texas, it’s a somewhat chaotic experience because pipes can burst. You know, you’re potentially dealing with all number of service orders. It can be a disaster. People storm grocery stores. But in the northeast, you’re not typically dealing with that. When I was living in Boston, I was never worried about that type of thing. In Chicago, is there ever any worry about, you know, freezing orAllen Bosbyshell (11:57)
Yeah, just got to survive the winter. In the property management space, know for Texas, it’s ⁓ somewhat chaotic experience because pipes can burst. You’re potentially dealing with all number of service orders. It can be a disaster. People storm grocery stores. But in the Northeast, you’re not typically dealing with that. When I was living in Boston, I was never worried about that type of thing. In Chicago, is thereever any worry about freezing or? ⁓
Dylan Silver (12:23)
⁓ Problems that can come with inclement weather.Allen Bosbyshell (12:26)
problems that can come with inclement weather? Yes, and whenever you have things that freeze, you have these tenants that want to slip and fall and sue you. So you have to just be well aware that like if the first snows fall in like November, it’s gonna be a rough ⁓ winter. But I got lucky one winter at a Chicago housing building, snow didn’t fall till January, it was only like a month or two, and it was super easy.But you have to salt, you’re right, from the south we don’t know about like salting the sidewalk in advance. Then you have to get this like lawn mower looking thing and it literally like lawn mows the path in the sidewalk and like shoots the snow somewhere else. And then you always have like a back neighbor and technically there’s always a weird fight of who snow plows that back area. And then really whoever does it first.
Dylan Silver (12:56)
No, not at all.Allen Bosbyshell (13:16)
just piles the snow to the other person’s. And so my maintenance people were always in a feud with our backdoor neighbors that would give us their snow and we gave them our snow and everyone’s mad and pointing fingers. And then keeps, you have to play keeps even in your house. You have to put a little plastic chair out in your parking square, which I never did, but people had a lot of fun with that game too. So there’s a lot of silly games you can play with it. It’s fun.Dylan Silver (13:40)
you’re jogging my memory. Yeah,for folks who are not in a cold climate, there will be like ⁓ a parking cone, like think of an orange cone in some type of curb area or sometimes not even it might just be like borderline impeding traffic and that’s someone staking their claim to that parking spot. So it’s good to know that that happens in other cities outside of Boston.
Allen Bosbyshell (13:43)
You’re jogging my memory. for folks who are not in a cold climate, there will be like ⁓ a parking cone, like think of an orange cone in some type of area or sometimes not even. It might just be like borderline impeding traffic and that’s someone staking their claim to that parking spot. So it’s good to know that that happens in other cities outsideof Boston. Utterly crazy.
Dylan Silver (14:05)
Yeah, yeah, I want to pivot a bit here, Allen and ask you about going from there to Atlanta. And then what were the differences that you saw in the real estate market? But but then also, did your acquisition process change at all? Whether it was you know, hey, let me look at foreclosures or let me, you know, make creative offers. Did anything change in the acquisition side?Allen Bosbyshell (14:06)
Yeah, yeah, I want to pivot a bit here, Allen, and ask you about going from there to Atlanta. And then what were the differences that you saw in the real estate market? But but then also, did your acquisition process change at all? Whether it was, you know, hey, let me look at foreclosures or let me make creative offers. Did anything change in the acquisition side?Absolutely. when I came back down to Atlanta, I actively tried to not do any self-managing, any property management. And that led me to the vacation rentals, a short-term space where, you know, it’s still property management, but at least the resident is happy and likes you and will leave in a couple of days. ⁓ There’s something about a 12 month lease where like, you are trapped, both of you are trapped. And that can do something weird to someone. It’s…
Dylan Silver (14:48)
Yeah.Allen Bosbyshell (14:57)
you know, more security for the investors or whatever. coming back down to Atlanta, I was like, let’s only do the fun version of this. Let’s only do the happy, I’m in town for a wedding party thing. I actually, people hate AirBnBs because the party thing, we’ve never had a big party scandal, but we’re not like anti-parties either. It’s just never been a problem. So we totally switched to vacation rentals, short-term rentals in the most walkable neighborhoods of Atlanta.Dylan Silver (16:05)
I’ve noticed that there does seem to be a lot of interest in Atlanta. And I don’t want to say it’s flying under the radar because Atlanta is a huge city. But when people talk about nationally, like, you know, areas that are super hot for real estate, I don’t always hear Atlanta at the top of the list. But now that I’m talking with more and more investors in Atlanta, I’m starting to think it should be and especially in multifamily, because I’m seeing not just larger, you know, maybe institutional investors looking at Atlanta, but there’s also a lot of interest fromAllen Bosbyshell (16:06)
There does seem to be a lot of in Atlanta and I don’t want to say it’s flying out of the radar because Atlanta is a huge city but when people talk about nationally like you know areas that are super hot for real estate I don’t always hear Atlanta at the list but now that I’m talking with more and more investors in Atlanta I’m starting to think it should be and especially in multi-flake because I’m seeing not just larger you know maybe institutional investors looking at Atlanta but there’s also a lot ofinterest from
Dylan Silver (16:34)
folks who maybe new or to real estate investing in getting into multifamily in Atlanta specific.
Allen Bosbyshell (16:35)
folks who may be newer to real estate investing in getting into multifamily in Atlantaspecifically? Equity residential just bought, I don’t remember what the transaction was, but they bought like an entire multifamily portfolio just along the Brookhaven, you know, I-400 corridor. So it’s coming up. mean, Atlanta has been growing for the last couple of decades and the bread and butter is usually the single families, single-hand homes that
that grow outward and create new suburbs. But the young people don’t want to move that far out and they have to rent. So multifamily is springing up in the city to cater to them. So I mean, that’s everywhere in the Sun Belt, really.
Dylan Silver (17:15)
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I find it interesting that multifamily does seem to be having a growth period right now pretty much everywhere. Part of it, I think, especially from my background in the distressed single family space is it’s a little bit harder or a lot a bit harder in places like where I’m licensed in Texas to flip homes because you’re competing with, you know, brand new homes by DR and Lenar and Meritage and some of the other builders that areAllen Bosbyshell (17:17)
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I find it interesting that multifamily, it does seem to be having a period right now pretty much everywhere. It’s a little bit harder or a lot of bit harder in places like where I’m licensed in Texas to flip homes because you’re competing with, know, brand new homes by. Yeah. D.R. and LenarDylan Silver (17:44)
both brand new,Allen Bosbyshell (17:44)
and Meritage and some of the other builders.Dylan Silver (17:46)
more cost effective, lower rates. It’s hard to flip homes when you’re competing against that. So more and more people are looking into either, hey, I’m gonna take a back seat or I’m gonna get into new construction or hey, let me go look at this multifamily thing and see if I can hack it over here.Allen Bosbyshell (17:46)
that are both brand new, more cost effective, lower rates, it’s hard to flip homes when you’re competing against that. So more and more people are looking into either, hey, I’m gonna take a back seat or I’m gonna get into new construction or hey, let me go look at this multifamily thingand see if I can hack it over here. Oh, you’re exactly right. You’re exactly right. mean, our target customer is almost like a family member who’s in town for a college event, like a graduation.
or a friend in town for a music festival in Piedmont Park. So our target customers are not really locals, but me speaking as a local, you’re absolutely right that multifamily is, in my opinion, doing very well here on the demand side. Obviously it’s hard because taxes are going up, insurance are going up. It’s not all glory on the multifamily operator side because they have crazy costs going up, but their costs are going up.
just like everyone’s costs are going up. And that also makes affording a home for an individual very hard, which means the demand side of multifamily goes up because they have to rent. So there is some sort of virtuous vicious cycle there to be had and apartments are not going away. Even if they’re built not well and they fall apart, they will not go away. Someone will still rent them. there’s, I mean, we need
We need supply, we need supply. I’m totally a fan of affordable housing because we absolutely need supply. ⁓ I’m a fan of the filter down economic theory. We need supply at the top end because it’ll filter down. We need supply at every end. So ⁓ I’m never mad at people building, acquiring, rehabbing, anything.
Dylan Silver (19:25)
want to ask you a granular question about folks who are getting into the multifamily space and they’re realizing, okay, well, I might, you know, run out of cash quickly doing this, this is going to be a while for me to build up. We were talking before hopping onto the podcast here, Allen, you’ve got a strategy that people don’t often immediately, you know, put everywhere online, but it’s the build slow strategy, right? And I want to ask you, with maybe without giving away all the gold, but just a gold tidbit here.Allen Bosbyshell (19:25)
I want to ask you a granular question about folks who are getting into the multifamily space and they’re realizing, okay, well, I might run out of cash quickly doing this. This is going to be a while for me to build up. We were talking before hopping onto the podcast here, Allen. You’ve got a strategy that people don’t often immediately put everywhere online, but it’s the build slow strategy, right? Yes. I want to ask you, maybe without giving away all the gold, but just a gold tidbit here.Dylan Silver (19:53)
For folks who are thinking, I’ve got to, know, syndicate or I’ve got to raise capital, ⁓ there’s another option, right? It’s build slow. What would be your feedback to those folks who want to build slow but aren’t seeing the messaging that like, it’s great to build slow.Allen Bosbyshell (19:54)
for folks who are thinking, ⁓ I’ve got to syndicate or.I’ve got to raise capital. There’s another option, right? It’s build slow. What would be your feedback to those folks who want to build slow but aren’t seeing the messaging that like,
it’s great to build slow?
Absolutely. And by build slow, just to clarify for your audience, I made a confession before we got on that ⁓ I have not raised capital, used other people’s capital. I’ve been using my own savings from my own.
jobs and investments, which is the slow way to do it. And it’s not what normal real estate people would recommend. So works for me, but it is definitely for someone like me who doesn’t want to become a capital raising networking influencer type. just, you you gotta know your strengths and weaknesses. Mine is not going to be online presence. Just sorry.
⁓ so I hope I’m addressing the question here, but
Dylan Silver (20:52)
Yeah, yeah, I think, you it’s a lot of folks who may feel like, well, if I’m going to do this, then I have to see these like 10 X returns and I’ve got to exit in five years. And so much of it is directed to that, especially, you know, with this show and me coming across so many folks who are doing that. I would love to shed some light on, hey, there’s lots of folks everywhere who are building.Allen Bosbyshell (20:52)
It works. People have done it forever. It’s a lot of folks who may feel like, if I’m going to do this, then I have to see these like 10 extra turns and I’ve got to exit in five years. And so much of it is directed to that, especially.you know, with this show and me coming across so many folks who are doing that, I would love to shed some light on, hey, there’s lots of folks everywhere
who are building a portfolio for themselves using their own dime, right? And it may not be a one size fits all strategy. There could be some people who do this full time, other people who have jobs and are acquiring a property every couple of years or so, but that’s definitely still a valid possibility out there and a route that people can take.
Dylan Silver (21:17)
⁓ a portfolio for themselves using their own dime, right? And it may not be a one size fits all strategy. There could be some people who do this full time, other people who have jobs and are acquiring a property every couple of years or so, but that’s definitely still a valid possibility out there and a route that people can take.Allen Bosbyshell (21:35)
Right, know, pros and cons, well I should also say I have a partner on some deals, but it’s me and a college friend, it’s not a syndication, so it’s me and a friend. But the pros and cons, know, the con is I’m not gonna hit a hundred unit building for like the next decade. So if your dream is a big win with a hundred unit building and exit in three years, I am like a decade away from that, and it’s fine. But the pro is…I control everything and I make all the decisions and I don’t have to send a monthly report to someone who asks me, yeah, well why that, why is that unit not occupied? I don’t have to play any investor question games. That is a pro for some people, if you’re like me. And it’s a good way to start while you’re young. If you’re young and you can save thousand, two thousand, three thousand dollars a month, within the first couple of years of your career, you’re ready to get in all by yourself, yourself.
without having to ask around. ⁓ So by, you know, it’s not a popular strategy, but people have done it for all of eternity and it works and it will take a long time, but I will own it all at the end, which is great.
Dylan Silver (22:41)
think I think it’s going to be more more and more popular. And here’s why is because it’s already hard enough for young people to own a home, right? So like owning a home, you’ve got to think like a real real estate investor, especially in Chicago, where I’m at right now, a visiting family in northern New Jersey, like, you know, the same home that’s like $283,000 in Texas is like $950,000, the same home. SoAllen Bosbyshell (22:43)
I think it’s gonna be more and more popular. And here’s why, is because it’s already hard enough for young people to own a home, right? So like owning a home, you’ve gotta think like a real estate investor. Especially in Chicago, where I’m at right now, a visiting family in Northern New Jersey, like, you know, the same home that’s like $283,000 in Texas is like $950,000, the samehome. So you do have to start thinking like,
Dylan Silver (23:07)
You do have to start thinking like a real estate investor.And once you turn that switch on, then you start to see, okay, like the fast money is the slow money. It’s not the money that you make overnight. It’s the money that you make over 510 15 years.
Allen Bosbyshell (23:13)
real estate investor. And once you turn that switch on, then you start to see, okay, like the fast money is the slow money. It’s not the money that you make overnight. It’s the money thatyou make over five, 10, 15 years. And I will add, previously, when I told the story about the five unit that I first bought, my original plan was the house hack. My original plan was three to four units and house hack. But I found one that didn’t need the house hack. And I happened to be at a place where I could do a conventional mortgage.
So I was just like, great, if we can skip the house hacking step, go for it. But I would totally recommend house hacking to anyone who, know, even if it’s your first job, start saving and try to house hack. It’s a brutal economy. You got to figure it out somehow.
Dylan Silver (23:57)
You got to house hack it, house hack it up. I do want to ask you, because we are coming up on time here, if there’s folks who may be in the greater Atlanta area and they have a deal ⁓ that they’d like you to take a look at, or maybe they’d like your feedback on their journey, maybe they’re looking at getting into the multifamily space, how can folks reach out to you or your team?Allen Bosbyshell (23:57)
Yeah, absolutely. I would just contact me on LinkedIn, Allen Bosbyshell on LinkedIn. I don’t have a big social media platform, so just message me or add me on LinkedIn. I’d be glad to look at your deal or help you with any property management problems. I’m very good at evictions too, kind of sad, but reach out to me with any problems I can solve for you or advice I can help you with. I’m all earsDylan Silver (24:41)
Allen, thank you so much for coming on the show today.Allen Bosbyshell (24:41)
Thank you much. Thank you Dylan.really appreciate it. Thank you
