Top Asset Management Strategies for Real Estate Investors

Mike Hambright (00:33)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. I’m really excited to have Cyndee Harding on today. We’re gonna be talking about asset management. It might not sound like a sexy subject, but at the end of the day, we all use real estate as a vehicle to create financial freedom. And unless you are operating it really well, which there’s a lot of multifamily out there these days that is not being operated very well, it’s had a lot of struggles, then it starts to get a little sexy, right? If you do what Cyndee’s gonna share with us today, you can have all the sexy you want.

She is the asset manager, Cyndee. Welcome to the show.

Cyndee Miller Harding (01:03)
Thank you so much for having me here. I love talking about asset management and to me it is very sexy. I love watching a property blossom.

Mike Hambright (01:08)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Yeah.

As an investor, want the people running the show to think it’s sexy, right? You want them to love what they do. And so that’s important. And I know that, you know, one of the challenges, we’re going to talk all about asset management today, but there’s a lot of properties that are non-performing or aren’t performing very well today. And there’s a lot of reasons for that. But I think ⁓ one of the things that you said right before we hit record here was that the asset management person, the person that’s responsible for that in the kind of partner agreement usually gets the short end of the stick. Like the sexy side is always

Cyndee Miller Harding (01:19)
Yeah.

Mike Hambright (01:44)
been the investor relations people, those raising money, those that are kind of putting the deal together. But the most critical part in the whole thing, and everybody knows it, is that it operates efficiently. But that person is usually, like as you said, the person that drew the short straw.

Cyndee Miller Harding (02:00)
Yeah, we’re trying really hard to change that. We want people that are asset managers that are very excited about it and really know like you, you’re the one that helps that property move from, you know, what you’ve purchased to be able to meet those returns to your investors and then also to have it become a community. So I think it can, I think it can be very fun. I love it. I do it every day all day long.

Mike Hambright (02:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, so there’s this misconception, like a lot of people don’t even know what do you mean by asset management. You mean property management? They’re very different things. So why don’t you just tell us, like, how do you describe asset management?

Cyndee Miller Harding (02:36)
Okay,

yeah, so we do always hire a professional third-party company so that they’re the property management and they’re the ones that take care of the leases, the tees, know, the tenants, toilets and termites. So they’re the ones that do the leases, they take care of all the maintenance and what we are is we’re actually the manager over the property management and the way that we’ve structured it is that

We have our GPs, so those are the people that are the key principals, the general partners on a deal, and then we have the asset manager, and then we have the property management. And so I’m the liaison between the GPs and the property management. And the reason it works really well is they only have one voice. They don’t have multiple people telling them what to do. They do basically what I tell them to do. And then I go back to the GPs, I report to them.

And I let them know, and I’m a GP myself, but I report to the GPs, this is where we are, these are the things that we’re doing, these are some of the projects that we have coming up. We do our votes, get all our approval, and then I take it back to the property management. So that way, the property manager is only listening to one person. And we have found that that’s very effective, because then we can make sure things are getting done. They’re not getting multiple messages.

Mike Hambright (03:58)
Right.

Cyndee Miller Harding (03:58)
and we

can tell what’s the priority and what’s not the priority.

Mike Hambright (04:01)
Yeah, and it’s a perfect fit because the truth is, is everybody that’s buying deals like this, or not everybody, other than some very large kind of institutional players, are buying value-add properties. Like, they need somebody that is the consultant that’s gonna make this thing as profitable as it possibly can be, right? But a lot of times, I think there’s just so much focus on other parts of the business, even though that is the most important part, it kind of gets left out.

Cyndee Miller Harding (04:27)
Yeah,

it really does. The asset manager is the one that determines whether or not the property makes money. mean, honestly, it’s a very big fiduciary responsibility. That is ours, and we take that on. You know, the acquisitions, the investor relations, they go on to other properties, but we stay behind. Like, we are with that property for the whole term of the business plan. And it’s our job to make sure that we are making money. And if we’re not,

Let’s discover why.

Mike Hambright (04:56)
Yeah, and the numbers tell the story. You were actually at Investor Fuel Live here last week. By the time this comes out, it’ll have been several weeks back, but there’s a guy named Casey Quinn there that owns a ton of real estate himself, but he started as an accountant and has an accounting business and all this. And he has said several times, I’ve heard him say the phrase that accounting, by the way, I’m a finance guy and my wife was a finance and accounting background as well. And so it resonated with us that accounting is the language.

of business, right? And I think there’s a lot of real estate people that love the idea of real estate. They love the idea of building wealth. They’re good at raising money. They might be good at coaching. They might be good at inspiring people, but they’re not necessarily the best operators. But they think if I just lean on my property management company really hard, they’ll figure it all out. And so that’s not really how it works,

Cyndee Miller Harding (05:24)
Yes.

It’s

really not.

And it does help if you have, I had my own accounting practice for 25 years, so it did make it a little bit easier to step into asset management because my background is in accounting. But you don’t have to have an accounting background, but I would say you definitely need training and you have to learn the information. Because when you get financial packets every month, we go through them. We hold the property management, you we hold their feet to the fire. This is our budget.

this is where we were, why are we over, why are we under. We do it every month so there’s a good accountability there and if you don’t have an asset manager that’s looking at the financials then you really do have a problem. You can’t rely on the GPs because honestly you have five GPs, you’re going to have five opinions and you really need to be able to come to a consensus of one.

Mike Hambright (06:37)
Yeah.

Yeah,

and I know there’s a number of things that you’ve, through your own operations, have just figured out that a lot of times what some folks might do is come in and they just…

try to cut expenses to the bone and you found ways to add, know, look at it more from an investment standpoint. Like, yes, this is an expense, but it’s going to either add value to the property or it’s gonna add value to the relationship so that person will stay longer. I know we’re gonna, I wanna get into kinda some of the things you do to build a community there in a little bit. But before we get there, maybe talk about like some of the misconceptions or things that people look at that are, that, you know, I guess.

where they try to cut expenses, but they’re really kind of short-sighted on those potential investments, if you will.

Cyndee Miller Harding (07:23)
Well, think one of those, a big one, is renewals.

You know, they think, okay, you know, they’ve lived there a year. We’re going to raise the rent. That’s how we’re going to, we’re going to keep increasing our NOI is through increasing our income. So we’re going to raise the rent and we’re really, what I say, front facing to the residents. So we try to be mindful of what the resident needs. So whenever it’s time for a renewal, we always do something that’s going to let the resident know that we appreciate that they are choosing to stay. And so we’ll do that through

some sort of upgrade within their unit, which you have to remember on the flip side of that, we’re still increasing the value of the property. So not only are we letting the resident know, hey, we really appreciate you, but we’re going to do something that’s going to increase the value of the unit that they’re in. So we’re either going to put in a new faucet or put in LED lighting. You know, we had a guy who his toilet rocked. Every time he sat on the toilet, it would shift back and forth. And when it was

time for him to renew. He said, I will renew if you give me a new toilet. Well, do you think we gave him a toilet? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Mike Hambright (08:33)
Yeah, of course. Yeah. And

there’s a lot of people that would, guess, maybe give financial incentives, right? Which is like, we’ll give you a month off or we’ll give you half a month’s rent or things like that. And those are clearly are not adding value to the business. And they’re also detracting from your NOI, obviously.

Cyndee Miller Harding (08:51)
Right, we don’t do that, that’s not part of our program. We always do something that’s gonna increase the value of the unit. ⁓

Mike Hambright (08:58)
Yeah,

yeah. So let’s talk about…

Community activities, I know you do a lot to make, you wanna make it a home, right? mean, at the end of the day, apartments are more transient than houses. And your goal is, I mean, I own a bunch of single family houses too, and I can tell you that the vacancy and the turnover, and then the associated make-readies, like just eats our lunch, right? And so you wanna keep people there. And so part of that is making it more of a home, right? So talk about some of the activities and things that you do.

Cyndee Miller Harding (09:25)
Yeah, we actually have a program that’s called From Complex to Community. When you think about, especially with value adds, when we’re purchasing, a lot of them are, what I say, tired. Tired owners, tired complex. They haven’t been doing the deferred maintenance. And so people just kind of come and go. They don’t really know their neighbor. It’s just a place to lay their head at night. And so our goal is to turn it into a community.

where people have a beautiful safe place to live and where they love where they live and they love their community. So we do different activities every month. The first one we do is an incentive. Now this is, it’s also just remember it’s twofold, but it’s an incentive for them to pay on time. So we’ll do like if it’s on the fifth, but the fifth day of the month, we’ll do maybe pizza and pay. So if they paid their rent, they come to the leasing office.

They get pizza. one day out of the month, we take care of dinner for them. We might have a taco truck come. And if they’ve paid their rent on time, they go to the taco truck. And what happens is, A, it helps us with our cash flow because everyone is paying timely. And it also cuts down on the onsite having to do follow up for delinquencies, which also then leads to now we don’t have to do notice to vacates. And then we don’t have to, you know, it just helps get everybody in the front.

And we also, on the properties, offer FlexPay, which is a program that’s a third party where they can pay half a rent at a time. So we do work with our residents because we want them to be able to pay on time and to have what they need in the community. So that’s the first one is the pay on time. The second one is we always do a birthday celebration. And so we’ll pick a day of the month, like maybe the third Thursday of the month.

Mike Hambright (11:10)
Mmm.

Cyndee Miller Harding (11:14)
They get a text and it’s anyone in their house because remember it’s all listed on the lease and we do use AI. And so AI lets us know, hey, these are the birthdays that are coming up. And so we get them a text, please come to the leasing office. We have a birthday cupcake or birthday cookie or some way that we celebrate the residents that live there that it is their birthday. So that’s another way that we celebrate. And then we also have a community event.

Mike Hambright (11:18)
Yeah.

That was great.

Cyndee Miller Harding (11:41)
So that might be, we have a barbecue, we’ve done Easter egg hunts, we’ve done pool openings, we’ll do a big barbecue, we do a pool closing, that way we officially open the pool, officially close the pool. And then any type, like we have Halloween coming up, so we’ll do a trunk retreat where people will set up their cars in the parking lot and the kids can be in the complex and they can go to the leasing office. We always have a big bag of goodies for them. And then they go and…

visit the different cars and that way it’s a safe way and then people are sitting there they’re talking to their neighbor and then it becomes a community.

Mike Hambright (12:17)
Right.

Yeah. help me understand with ⁓ these are amazing things. So does it help? I mean, it seems like this would be better the bigger the apartments are. And so when you’re going into deals and you want to create community, are you are you avoiding, you know, complexes that are that are like one bedroom heavy, for example, are you trying to find things that are a little less transient? Because it seems like the things that you just mentioned here would work best with small families, right?

Cyndee Miller Harding (12:44)
Yes, yes. Yeah, we do. A lot of our complexes have two and three bedrooms. So when we’re getting into those three bedrooms, we are having families that live there. But you know, we don’t really shy away because we do have one complex that just has one and two bedrooms and they don’t really have a lot of children. So we did an Easter egg hunt for them. That was an adult Easter egg hunt. It was at night and they were glowing the dark eggs.

So we still do things, you know, and we still do barbecues. People still eat, people still want to get in the pool. So we just tailor it to each community based on whether or not they have children or not. We’d have one where we owned four communities in the same town. We did a huge backpack drive for them. So we just watched when Amazon Prime.

Mike Hambright (13:13)
Yeah.

for

Cyndee Miller Harding (13:30)
came about, we bought backpacks and then we bought a package of school supplies that had paper and pens and pencils, erasers, crayons, all in one package. And so we offered that to our residents. We didn’t want them to have to choose between paying rent and getting their kids in school. And you know, nowadays it’s so expensive getting all those things together. So we want our residents to know, we care about you, we are there to help you. And the leasing agent.

Mike Hambright (13:48)
Yeah.

Cyndee Miller Harding (13:56)
that’s on site, she’s your advocate. So that’s what we want people to do. We want to change the perception of the leasing office. So we do that when we have these events that the leasing agent’s there, she knows their kids, she knows their dog’s names. So it really helps create that sense of community.

Mike Hambright (14:10)
That’s great.

Yeah, I think a lot of things that you’re explaining here like will help real estate investors remember that your tenants are your customers. Like a lot of times we just want them to be this faceless person that’s sending money in every month like clockwork, but you know, they’re humans and they’re customers and those relationships are in an age of AI and social media where people are connected to everybody but don’t really know anybody or don’t have those relationships. I mean, I think it’s every little thing like that helps people feel like they’re

importance, right?

Cyndee Miller Harding (14:44)
Yeah, and

we do use AI, but the part of us using AI allows my on-site to spend the human time. So she’s not having to chase people down for their rent. We’ve had people, we know that we’ve hit the community when they actually come into the leasing office and they’re like, hey, I know rent’s not due yet and I’m gonna be late, but this is when I’m gonna pay it. And they keep those promises to pay because they’ve established a relationship.

with that onsite. They realize now that the onsite is their advocate. The onsite isn’t the person just collecting the rent. She’s the one that’s helping and saying, hey, what do you want to do for community? We had one complex. They all came in and said, we want to do a friendsgiving. It was Thanksgiving. Like most of us aren’t going anywhere. So we said, sure. So we provided the meat and the paper products, and everyone made their favorite Thanksgiving dish, and we had a friendsgiving.

Mike Hambright (15:19)
Right.

That’s awesome. How do you incentivize the folks in your leasing office to be friendly like that and think of it as more, and truthfully, is a, you know, it’s not a high paying job typically, and so it’d be easy to just plug somebody in that can kind of do the bare minimum. But how do you incentivize your staff to kind of roll that all the way through 24 hours a day, 365 days a year?

Cyndee Miller Harding (16:03)
Well, one of the things that we always remember is that the onsite does not work for us. The onsite works for the property management. So when we have our property management calls, which we have the first year we own a property, we meet every week with the PMs and the onsite, and we never criticize or correct the onsite on those calls. All we do is praise what they do.

Mike Hambright (16:10)
That’s right, yeah.

Cyndee Miller Harding (16:26)
Now, if there’s anything, any behavior that needs to be corrected or anything that we need to change, we talk to our regional and we let the regional instruct the onsite. So the relationship that we have with the leasing agent is really good because all we are is we’re their cheerleader. We’re the one telling them they’re doing a great job and we appreciate what they do. Any correction that comes, comes from their boss. So we’re really respectful of the chain of command.

we talk with the regional and we’ll do that, you know, on a different call and just say, hey, this is what we’re concerned about. And we have changed onsites before. Like if it’s not working, we had ⁓ one that she didn’t really believe in what the rent should be. She thought she should be the cheapest in town. That was kind of her claim to fame as, we’re the cheapest in town. And when we bought the complex, I said, not anymore.

Like you’re not gonna be the cheapest in town, but you’re gonna be the best in town. And she just couldn’t wrap her mind around it. But we had to replace her because we were losing people. The numbers don’t lie. So when we’re looking and we see we’ve got traffic coming in, but not conversion, then there’s a problem. So that’s when we talked to the regional, we start watching it and we realize, yeah, we need to get a different onsite. But I think a lot of them, they buy into…

Mike Hambright (17:22)
Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cyndee Miller Harding (17:44)
it being a community because it becomes a better place for them to work. And then they always keep their office full of snacks, people come in and visit. So they’re the ones that are really helping us foster the community. And we let the AI kind of do the, you’re delinquent and all the follow-up stuff that needs to go on so that as they’re dealing with the resident, they can really address what are their issues and how can we help.

Mike Hambright (17:49)
Sure.

Yeah. So I see how you fit with managing the property manager. How do you make that, make sure that’s a successful relationship? Because I could also see property managers feel like it’s another cook in the kitchen that’s just like watching over their shoulders. So how do you, how do you make sure that that relationship is successful?

Cyndee Miller Harding (18:29)
Well, two things that we do is one, if they’re used to having GPs, all of a sudden they go from having four or five people telling them what to do to having one voice, one person. So a lot of times they’re really grateful. There’s only one person they answer to. So they have my cell phone, they can call me anytime. And they do, we’ll have conversations because I will work with them.

whatever they need to accomplish so that I can take it back to the GPs. So that is one way is that it takes stress off of them because they only have one person instead of trying to figure out what five different people want, they only have one. And the other is, and I say this all the time to my staff, is you can collect more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. And I just try to be a nice person. I try to be the honey and not the vinegar.

Mike Hambright (19:20)
Yeah, that’s great. So let’s talk a little bit about just like what’s going on in the marketplace right now. I’m a GP in some deals and there’s a lot of deals that are not going very well. Some of it is tied back to interest rates increasing and people had bridge lines and they have to refinance with more expensive.

Financing some of it is there is a little bit of a struggling economy like you know of going on where it’s just harder for people to pay the rent and sometimes what happens is people are short-sighted the operators might be short-sighted and just start to slash expenses or I’m just gonna get in there and manage it myself or what other people start to make a lot of decisions when things aren’t going well and so I I have no doubt just from knowing you and everything that you’re about that

everybody needs you or a Cyndee in their business on their team, right? To help kind of make sure this thing is operating at a high level. But what are some, I guess, you know, not to rub salt in the wound, but what are some kind of common things that people may have, that’s been happening over the past couple of years? And then maybe give us a prescription of like how to, how to, some quick wins, maybe some simple things to kind of fix those, some of those things. If anything is simple, you know.

Cyndee Miller Harding (20:28)
Yeah,

well it is simple. You just follow your plan. That’s part of it. Sometimes people kind of panic. We had a complex where we did have quite a few vacancies, and I had GPs telling me, let’s cut the rent, let’s cut the rent. And I’m like, no, we can’t cut the rent. I’ve done the market surveys. We are competitive. So we want to be in that sweet spot. We want to be about halfway up the market. Not the most expensive, not the cheapest.

And we’re right there. So we don’t want to cut the rent. We’re better off to do a concession to get people in. And then when they renew, then they’re going to renew at the full amount. They’ve already lived there a year. It’s not worth it to move to save 50 bucks. They already in the community. And that’s really where you have your success is when you’ve got your renewals. My renewal rate is about 85 % at my properties and the national average is about 50. So already right there, that’s a win.

But we don’t cut the rent you want to make sure you’re competitive now if you’re overpriced and you’re gonna need to do it But I do a market survey myself my staff actually calls we make sure that we are competitive So that’s one thing that you can do is make sure that

Mike Hambright (21:38)
And is that a poor

marketing issue? Like they just need to do a better job of marketing to get people on the property to do tours and things like that?

Cyndee Miller Harding (21:45)
Yes, and I definitely promote AI because we have AI on our property so when they call in they’re talking to AI which sounds like a human you don’t know that you’re talking to AI and it will take them all the way through to actually scheduling a tour and it works they and it’s it’s kind of a relentless because you know if they drop halfway through the application it’ll contact them hey do you want to finish your application

Or do you want to schedule a tour? So that really frees up the onsite to be able to do that human capacity where they’re actually talking with people, walking the property. We have our onsites walk the property twice a day, so that morning and night. So we want them out there where they’re talking with people, understanding what are things that they would like to do, what are things they want on the property, what amenities are they looking for. So then they become a resident.

and not just someone who’s paying rent. And I think when you lose sight of the human compassion part of it, that’s really when we start getting into trouble, because we panic. We don’t have the people that we need. So what are we going to do? And we start scrambling. And I say, no, we’re not going to scramble. We’re going to stay the course. We’re going to keep our rents the way they are. We’re going to make concessions. And then when we renew, we’ll get them where we need to be. So it may take a little bit of a hit.

But in the end, once you lower your rents, it is so, so hard to get them back where they’re supposed to be. So that’s a big mistake people make. And then the other mistake is they don’t look at the financials. They don’t look and see where the money’s being spent. And if they’re out of budget, I always make sure I have budgets from my PMs, and they stay within budget. And if they’re out of budget, they have to tell me why.

Mike Hambright (23:12)
Sure, yeah.

Cyndee Miller Harding (23:33)
And sometimes it’s legit, I totally get it. Okay, yes, we’re doing this or we have a CapEx project that we’re working on, but we wanna make sure that we’re staying in budget and if we’re not, they get an email every month. So the financials are gone through, everything is looked at, they get an email, they’ll get praise and they’ll also get correction. So we do both sides, because we appreciate the jobs that they do. And I think sometimes people think they’re just gonna…

bear down on the property management, cut the expenses and just kind of squeeze them and that’s going to do it. It doesn’t work that way. It really doesn’t. You have to work with your property manager. They don’t work for you. They work with you. We walk right beside them.

Mike Hambright (24:08)
Yeah.

Yeah, that’s great. Cyndee, I’m going to ask you to get out your crystal ball and tell us a little bit about where you think the market is going for multifamily. And I know it’s very specific by market, but where do you think the marketplace is going? And where do you think it’s going as an asset class for passive investors? I think one of the things that’s happened is

And quite frankly, I’m just looking at some of our own deals of people invested in our deals, I invested in our deals. we thought there was minimal risk because things had been great for so long.

And, ⁓ you know, at the end of the day, the returns that are not guaranteed for sure, and not promised, but it may be expected, aren’t happening generally. And, ⁓ you know, I think there some people that are like, well, I didn’t know there was any risk here. It’s like, well, you should have put your money in a CD, because there is a risk. So everybody bears responsibility for this. what does this look like as, I guess, just in the market for ⁓ multifamily deals? Because everything is tightened up right now.

Cyndee Miller Harding (24:55)
right?

Mike Hambright (25:16)
obviously, and it’s starting to loosen up a little bit. But also, what does this look like as an asset class to invest in for LPs, I guess, in the years ahead?

Cyndee Miller Harding (25:24)
Yeah, well, according to my crystal ball, right now we are investing mostly in C plus and B properties, mainly due to the age. So we’re very particular about anything in the 60s. It’s too old, the plumbing and the electrical. And I do think that there’s going to be a lot coming on the market because there were bridge loans. People are being forced to sell.

Mike Hambright (25:27)
Right.

Cyndee Miller Harding (25:49)
So I do see that there are more properties coming on the market. We get them every day. But we have a pretty stringent what we’re looking for. And that’s part of it. I think if it used to be five years ago, you could buy something, of the property management run it, and everyone could make money. But that is not multifamily today. Multifamily today is you need an asset manager that is hands-on.

that talks to the property management that is constantly looking and seeing what can we do to improve, how can we make this better, and it’s not passive at all. It’s very, very active. And I think if you’re doing it passively, you’re going to lose money.

Mike Hambright (26:30)
Thank you for sharing that. So Cyndee, you’ve got a lot of, you you’ve got to a lot of knowledge. You have a service where you help people improve their properties, whether they’re now, you join as GP to help kind of draw the short stick. You prefer the short end of the short straw, it sounds like. If folks want to connect with you, where can they go?

Cyndee Miller Harding (26:45)
I do.

They can

go to my website, which is HCMH LLC, that stands for High Caliber Multifamily LLC.com.

Mike Hambright (26:57)
We’ll add a link down below. Thanks for sharing some insights with us. I’m glad to know you. My wheels are turning on some things that we need to do differently in the future as well.

Cyndee Miller Harding (27:00)
You are so welcome.

Yeah, hey,

get on my calendar. I have my calendar on the website. And I love to talk to people about what we can do to help your property. So it’s free. It doesn’t cost anything. I love to chat.

Mike Hambright (27:18)
Yeah, that’s fantastic.

We’ll add the link down below and if anybody, if this resonated with you and you’re listening, definitely want to contact Cyndee. Quite frankly, I think that…

you and what you’re doing as an asset management is going to become more, I think more LPs in the future should really do their homework as to who’s running the show here because it’s such an important part of the business. I think that if anything has happened over the last couple of years here, it’s been a little bit of a wake up call as to like, what, what due diligence can people do going forward in terms of the operations of the business and paying a little more attention than just the projections on what might happen, you know, and what the cash flow

might be, it’s like let’s really dig into who’s going to execute that and make sure that happens.

Cyndee Miller Harding (28:01)
Absolutely.

Mike Hambright (28:02)
Yeah. So awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Great to see you. Everybody. Thanks for joining. Hopefully you got some great insights from today. If you’re, if you’re investing either passively or actively in ⁓ property management, in multifamily, sorry, you need to make sure that you have these pieces in place. And quite frankly, I’ve raised money for deals. And so I, I know I’ve built up a lot of relationships with a lot of people and I can just tell you, even from our deals going forward, I want to be very, I know multifamilies are great.

asset class to invest in. You just have to make sure that your plan is not a dream, right? That it really has actionable steps behind it.

Cyndee Miller Harding (28:35)
Exactly. And then you’ve got an

active asset manager. ⁓ that’s going to be very involved. Give me a call.

Mike Hambright (28:40)
Yeah, absolutely. absolutely. So, hopefully you guys enjoyed

today’s show. We’ll see you on the next one.

Cyndee Miller Harding (28:46)
Thank you.