From Mom’s Basement to 150 Deals a Year

Mike Hambright (00:00.901)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. Super excited. Had my buddy Phil here joining us from Buffalo. Phil and I’ve been friends for a number of years now. He’s a member of the mastermind does over 150 deals a year. We’re going to talk about kind of what’s working now in each exit strategy. Learn a little bit more about Phil and and his I guess over time just kind of his advancement in his career so you folks can learn a few things from it as well. So Phil is doing some impressive stuff up there in Buffalo, New York, Niagara, the background of.

Backyard of Niagara Falls, I guess right so feel good to see you,

Phillip Greiner (00:35.074)
How’s it going, Mike? Thanks for having me.

Mike Hambright (00:37.351)
Yeah, yeah, glad to have you on the show. yeah, so you’re in upstate New York. I think a lot of folks don’t really understand how different that is from like, you know, probably the New York City area. But tell us a little bit about you and your background. And then let’s jump into what makes kind of the the Buffalo area unique when people kind of hear New York, I guess. So first, I’ll start off with you tell us a little bit about your your background and how you got into real estate investing.

Phillip Greiner (01:06.03)
So technically I’ve been in real estate since 2006-2007. Some friends of mine from high school actually had the local HUD contract. So I started off boots on the ground construction, servicing foreclosed homes, handling all the bank’s dirty work, anywhere from cleaning toilets, Fannie Mae allowable, 50 bucks, clean the dookie, to full blown kitchens and bathrooms. But on average we’d service

give or take 3,000 houses a year and that did not include bi-weekly grass cuts or multiple visits to the same property.

kind of got exposed in the middle of the foreclosure crisis and was leaned on from the construction services side of things. I’d say like 2012-ish, I graduated into becoming a foreclosure broker, sold around a thousand houses in a three year period, working for the largest landlords in the world, the banks and the government. So I kind of got an institutional background into real estate before

jumping in, I guess, feet first into managing my own assets. But I mean, it was definitely an education process as a whole.

Mike Hambright (02:25.863)
That’s great. then talk about that. I guess when you kind of realize like, I should just be taking these houses and doing something with them myself. And then obviously there was a transition of getting deal flow through foreclosures to you got to go out and market for these things now.

Phillip Greiner (02:46.304)
Yeah, so I mean, if there’s one thing I kick myself for all the time, it’s not buying real estate earlier. For whatever reason, it just didn’t register in my mind. It’s like, buy the asset, buy the asset.

I’d say six, seven years ago that finally kicked in. It’s like, what are you doing, $15,000 roofs when you can just buy the house and manage all the construction for yourself and get the equity and all the enjoyment that comes into play with that. Kind of, what was the first part of your question there? Sorry, I kind of lost you.

Mike Hambright (03:25.201)
Well, just where you kind of realize that you should be doing this yourself. And then obviously as the foreclosure market, like I guess early on you were still buying probably doing foreclosure deals. And then eventually you had to go out and find those on your own and, kind of understand the importance of marketing and lead gen, right?

Phillip Greiner (03:46.294)
Yes, so I mean, absolutely did not understand the marketing side of the business. The foreclosure arena is a different avenue, so to speak. Once you get in with, whether it’s Wells Fargo, HUD, Fannie, Freddie, Bank of America, when you get in there and you perform, they just continue to feed you inventory. So I mean, there’s no need to market. They will keep you as busy as you’re willing to be as long as your performance is there. So I never had to

the outreach in order to generate business. Once you get in with one asset manager, well they have friends that are asset managers and your name just gets bounced around from a referral basis and things organically grow. Again, looking back I was foolish. If I would understand that the marketing gained prior earlier too then maybe I would have started to buy the asset sooner but I mean definitely it was a huge portion of my business that was missing for

Mike Hambright (04:17.18)
Yeah.

Phillip Greiner (04:44.662)
the first 10 years.

Mike Hambright (04:48.007)
Yeah, yeah. So let’s talk about I mean, do you see what we’re on it because you’ve got a lot of expertise there. Do you see I hear things all the time about there’s all this shadow inventory is all this inventory building up the banks have been, you know, trying to work with people, but they might have had multiple loan modifications or all sorts of issues kind of through COVID and through the downturn now. The market shift over the past couple of years. So

Do you feel like there’s a wave of foreclosure activity that’s going to start coming again at some point or how do you feel about that?

Phillip Greiner (05:23.038)
We’ve definitely seen an influx of foreclosure sales in our backyard. I mean, is it dramatic enough where it’s going to make or break or change the path of the market? I don’t believe so. Unfortunately, I mean, the majority of those sales are ending up back with the broker. The debt totals are just so high that nobody’s buying them at the auction and they’re making their way back in as REO inventory.

In that same conversation, lot of the investors and government institutions are still, I guess, enforcing owner-occupied or non-for-profit priority. So to be honest, I really don’t do a hell of a lot of business in the foreclosure side or mortgage foreclosure side at the moment, just because we’ve kind of been regulated out.

That said, I have heard rumors that both HUD and FANNY are going to be dropping their first look periods, which is going to make things a lot more investor friendly right off the bat. So, mean, we are looking to expand into those arenas as well. I mean, there’s opportunity there. Do I think it’s going to?

Mike Hambright (06:30.119)
Yeah. Yeah. So talk a little bit about the Buffalo market. I know you said that recently Zillow basically said it was one of the most affordable markets in the country. When most people hear New York, they generally probably associate with the New York City area. And, you know, talk a little about like what makes Buffalo and your market kind of unique from the rest of the state.

Phillip Greiner (06:51.886)
Yeah, so I mean, we are a whopping eight hours away from that cesspool they call New York City. And it’s a completely different market. Very blue collar. I mean, you can still find an affordable starter home for 250, 300 or less. I believe that’s one of the reasons that Zillow ranked us number one for 2025.

seeing a lot of gentrification, so to speak. The East side of Buffalo specifically has gone from an African-American market to a Muslim market. Finally seen some census growth for the first time in 40 years. Last time they did a census, Buffalo has been a dying market for decades and it’s good to kind of see things turning around and…

window right now there’s actually a crane downtown. Now there’s only one crane it’s not like Dallas where you guys have a crane on every block but I mean we’re starting to see some you know some capital coming in.

Mike Hambright (07:59.367)
Yeah, that’s great. So I know we talked, we’ve talked many times, obviously, but your, your exit strategy mix, you do maybe 50 % wholesale, 40 % fix and flip and 10 % rental. So let’s talk about maybe break these, the exit strategies down a little bit. Let’s start with fix and flip. Cause I know you’ve got a lot of experience with heavy construction and things like that. So talk a little bit about what’s working now in your market with fix and flips and maybe what, what you’re doing in your business that

you didn’t do in years past that you find yourself doing these days to kind of pivot around any market issues.

Phillip Greiner (08:36.492)
Yeah, mean, so I mean, lately our best deals have been the heavy lifts, whether it’s the fire damage properties, the significant structural issues, basement walls collapsing, mold, hoarders, et cetera. It seems like a lot of investors are scared of those situations. They don’t have the process in the background from the construction side of things or the capital available in order to make those play. But some of our best flips is of lately and even

and Reynolds have been just the massive construction projects. I mean, we’re doing a duplex currently. It’s like 2,900 square feet, complete gut was on fire and we’re hoping to be able to turn that out and around.

days and the ability to hit the heavy lifts, hit them fast and do things effectively is definitely a huge plus if you can get that down as a business owner. Finding way less competition on the major projects. mean, anybody can do carpet and paint. Even a realtor that sold one house might be able to fog up the mirror and put together a basic cosmetic rehab.

We’ve been having a ton of success with the major lifts.

I guess,

Mike Hambright (09:56.249)
And the key is for the rehabs, for those major rehabs, mean, you’re making, mean, it’s always interesting when you have a house that doesn’t need, could, you could put some lipstick on it. Like you just clean it up a little bit. Like I think a lot of folks have been doing more whole tailing type stuff in the current market because you can still keep it, if you keep your costs down, you can keep it affordable, right? And so when you have a house that needs a heavy lift like that,

it’s your only option is to make it new again, right? So you just have to buy it really deep to be able to do that heavy of a rehab and put out a great product that probably really stands out in this market, right? So is that, you say that’s the key is obviously not a lot of people are competing for those really heavy lifts. So you’re, you’re just focused on getting those really, really deep. So you can kind of go all out on the rehab and sell them quickly.

Phillip Greiner (10:47.758)
Yeah, mean, exactly. I mean, a portion of it’s also just older housing stock. I mean, when you have houses built in 1910, 1920, I mean, you have to expect to touch the mechanics inside of these things. The electric, the plumbing, I mean, it’s all dated and I mean, useful life on those utilities are just, it’s gone. So, I mean,

Mike Hambright (11:04.732)
Yeah.

Phillip Greiner (11:14.894)
I guess where I’m going is I wish we could get more cosmetic rehabs in Buffalo, but you have to look at the market that you’re doing business in and do they exist. You’re buying an 1880 house, well yeah, it’s gonna need water lines, it’s gonna need drain lines, gonna need electric.

that’s part of the reason I would attribute to our success at the moment is whether it was on fire or it’s just, I guess, extremely dated, regardless of the fact you’re still touching the mechanics in the background, and if you can’t streamline that, you’re gonna run into problems. Not sure if that answered your question there.

Mike Hambright (11:56.145)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. How do you maybe you could talk a little about setting expectations with sellers? Because obviously, you know, if it’s built in the 1880s or 1910 or whatever, a lot of sellers think that their house is like, it just needs a little bit of fix up. Right. But you’re in order to be able to afford to do a heavy rehab, you really have to convince the seller that you have to go touch a bunch of stuff that they probably think is fine. Right. And so maybe talk about your kind of approach to to sellers that have

Because we’re coming out of a market here where sellers had unrealistic expectations about their house. They’ve had to kind of become a little more realistic. And you and I both know like, hey, to really stand out in this market, we’re going to do a lot of work here. And that means touching a bunch of stuff that essentially the seller probably thinks is fine as is, which isn’t really the case. So talk about like how to navigate those waters from an acquisition standpoint.

Phillip Greiner (12:50.966)
to bring my blender to acquisitions appointments and if there’s no grounded outlet to plug the blender in on the kitchen counter then that’s a good way to have a conversation with the seller to explain that your you know electric’s outdated I mean that was a joke but in all seriousness it’s educating them on things like this I mean grounded outlets electric wise are it’s the new norm if you don’t have it it’s gonna be problematic

You can’t just change the device, it’s a two-wire device. You’re talking about completely rewiring the house. I mean, I understand that some of these more cosmetic rehabs, they don’t look terrible, but if you look behind the walls, you know you’re gonna have problems.

I guess educating them on the cost of these things. Hey, feel free. If you don’t believe my numbers, call three electricians. See what they’re going to charge you for a service. Here are three references. We do business with these people all the time. And I mean, they’re competitive with us when we’re doing 40, 50 houses with the same vendors. They give us beneficial pricing. And I mean, we have more buying power than your standard one, one off homeowner.

Unfortunately, inflation and labor costs, insurance costs, they just continue to rise and it’s definitely a battle to get on the same page.

Mike Hambright (14:21.659)
Yeah, yeah. So let’s talk about a couple of things that I know are that are impacting you and everybody in the market is one, finding good help with construction and you have a lot of experience. And then let’s talk about that. And then let’s talk about navigating issues with appraisals, which a lot of folks have been having lately as well. So first talk about just like lessons learned and kind of where you’re at today with managing a construction crew that is able to.

do that many super heavy rehabs a year.

Phillip Greiner (14:54.836)
I mean, hire fast, fire faster. You’ll get a general feeling about a construction employee within the first couple weeks. And if you’re even borderline teeter totting, teeter tottering behind, they might work, they might not work. They’re not solving your problem. Get them out the door faster than none. Negativity, not trying to pick on construction workers, but a lot of these guys are just…

and miserable individuals. I’m not gonna have it around here. We’ve got a very good group of guys that all, I guess, coincide very well together and if you’re gonna break up the mindset or add negative features, negative mindset into the business, you gotta go.

being willing to train. Nobody comes in for the most part knowing how to do everything, but if they’re willing to learn and have the patience in the background, we will teach you to know or to be able to handle anything. The majority of our construction guys are, I’d say 30 or less as far as an age bracket, which is few and far between. I’ll be the first one to admit that my generation sucks. None of these kids,

want to work, they all expect things to be handed to them, but they’re still out there. You just got to dig and put some time into people and it’ll pay off.

Mike Hambright (16:26.855)
Yeah, that’s great. I mean, there’s some benefits of doing the type of volume you’re doing is that you can find people that you can keep busy, right? I mean, it’s even harder if you just do some things here and there to find good people, because they’re never going to become committed to you. Do you agree with that?

Phillip Greiner (16:43.688)
Absolutely. I mean, that is definitely key when it comes down to building a team. If you’re two weeks on, two weeks off, you are never going to be able to keep any quality individuals around. You’ve got to continuously be able to provide work for them. Actually, this winter flipped our first trailer or manufactured home. And trust me, I wasn’t really excited about that when I got into the

deal, but it’s like I’ve got a team of 18 people here and the slowdown is not going to be good for business. So take some unforeseen risks and luckily it paid off. But I mean, that is to keep the wheels moving. Don’t definitely don’t want to have anybody stay home.

Mike Hambright (17:25.617)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So let’s talk about how are you navigating issues with appraisals? I know that appraisers are getting tougher, they’re getting more conservative. And so you put a lot of work into these houses. You want them to sell quickly with no drama. But naturally, drama is creeping in from lenders and appraisers and all these folks that are generally trying to be more conservative to you.

mitigate risk on their side. So talk about what you’re how you’re navigating those waters a little bit.

Phillip Greiner (17:56.846)
Yeah, I mean, just last week we had two appraisals come back way below what we sold them for. I think it was a total of like $90,000 in potential losses that we were going to have to eat on two properties because the numbers didn’t come in where we needed them to be. Start off with the set or a solid rebuttal. I mean, it’s 2025. All this data is available. We had one specifically on French road, which is a higher traffic

that an appraiser gave us a $20,000 location adjustment. I was able to fight that by going into the sales data and pulling everything into Pew New York and specifically pulling everything on Front Road and showing that actually Front Road sold more per square foot than the side roads in the subdivision. So I mean, being able to take the time and pull that data in the background and…

come do an appraisal rebuttal with some underlying data in the background has definitely helped. Now I mean, a lot of times they’re just gonna say no anyways. It’s like, listen, I went to school, I got a license, although this is my second appraisal, I am God, this is the number. Well, that’s crap.

If they’re still not going to take a serious look at your rebuttal and give you some leniency there, we’re having a second or a third appraisal order. And luckily, at least one of the circumstances I touched on earlier with the 90 grand of potential losses, we have reversed. Second appraiser came in and they hit our numbers. I mean, I hate to say it, but it’s all part of the lottery. Well, which appraiser did you get and are they competent?

Mike Hambright (19:45.703)
Right, right. Because of the affordability of your market, these typically FHA loans or are these conventional loans that you’re having appraisal issues with? What are you seeing there?

Phillip Greiner (19:55.118)
These were both conventional, but so I guess I really haven’t seen any dramatic increase or decrease with appraisal issues depending on, I guess, consumer’s loan type.

Mike Hambright (20:07.463)
Yeah, the good thing is with the conventional, you’ve got a little more flexibility. The FHA stuff, these appraisers kind of, they tie, the appraisals get tied to the property, right? So I guess that’s a good thing.

Phillip Greiner (20:21.134)
I mean, even before the appraisal issue, we’re still pushing for gap. If we have 35 offers and we’re $50,000 over list price.

something we’re trying to negotiate up front. Hey, if this doesn’t appraise, is your buyer willing to cover this or are going to give us gap coverage? It’s not every time, I mean, excuse me. You’d be surprised if you’re pushing out a high quality product and the buyer wants it. They’re willing to make those sacrifices.

Mike Hambright (20:52.571)
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. That’s great. Hey, I want to get into appraisals. I want to get into, sorry, wholesaling and stuff too, but we should have talked about this a little bit upfront. So talk about your evolution as an investor. Like I know, obviously you talked about the early years of doing all the foreclosure stuff, but you’ve come a long way, even in the time that I’ve known you from a one-man band to managing a pretty large team and a pretty large organization now. So maybe just talk about that journey a little bit and

You know, and I know you. I know you’re not one of these people because we’re friends that gives yourself enough credit for this, but you’ve done some pretty amazing things that just maybe kind of share that journey.

Phillip Greiner (21:35.686)
Yeah, mean hell my first investor fuel event I was literally living in my mother’s basement was coming off a brutal end of a former business and needed to completely rebuild so I I start re-enter the real estate game with not only no money but a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in credit card debt

was not bankable, there was no financing in the background. So I mean, the natural evolution here was wholesale first. I’d say the first couple years of my career, we never owned anything. was, we were strictly wholesaling. I was able to leverage the relationships that I had from the foreclosure of career previously to, I mean, be in front of the right people. I knew what my buyers were looking for, what areas they were interested in, and what they were willing to pay.

So I mean I was strictly the middle man.

capital became more accessible and credit became more accessible. It started to convert very heavy into the flipping game. Once my credit got repaired, started holding rentals up to 40 rental units at the moment. I’ve had great success there, I mean very, I’d say, standard from a real estate wholesaler’s perspective. Started off wholesaling everything, getting into flipping, get into rentals and…

and continue to grow from there.

Mike Hambright (23:04.645)
Yep. And now you’ve got a team, I think you said around 18 folks.

Phillip Greiner (23:08.546)
Yep, got 18 people at the moment. Nine in the office and nine construction guys.

Mike Hambright (23:14.353)
Yep, that’s great. And I know in just from personal conversations now, I you’ve got a lot more of your time back and trying to figure out how to utilize that time, right? There’s always this, after you build a business sometimes and you’re able to get what you want, which is some of that freedom. Sometimes we’ve worked so hard for so long that you don’t know what to do with that freedom sometimes,

Phillip Greiner (23:24.718)
Alright.

Phillip Greiner (23:33.762)
Yeah, I mean, just being honest, I was operating out of necessity. I don’t have the capital or the infrastructure in order to not do anything but work. And I’m the type of guy that’s just get out of the way and I’ll handle it. But as you’re trying to scale and actually create a business and not be a sales guy, you gotta be comfortable putting the responsibility into somebody else’s hands and knowing that they’re gonna be able to make it worth.

or make it work. Even if it’s not exactly what you would do, if it’s a variation of that and it’s 75-80 % right, let them run with it. Being able to empower your people and allow them to make decisions without coming back and having to ask for approval is huge with Scaled.

Mike Hambright (24:25.063)
That’s great, yeah. It’s been awesome to kind of watch your growth fill. So let’s talk a little bit about what’s working now with wholesaling. Obviously a lot of buyers have gone away. A lot of lending has tightened up and gotten harder to get or is more expensive or whatever. So how has your wholesaling business shifted? And maybe talk a little bit about how you decide what you’re gonna read. You kind of do almost as many wholesaling, a little bit more wholesaling maybe.

but how you decide what you’re going to fix and flip versus wholesale. Is it just a capacity issue? Is it a access to capital issue? Like how do you decide what you’re going to wholesale often? What does that side of your business look like today?

Phillip Greiner (25:02.828)
I mean, there’s definitely a bunch of moving parts in the background. First one that comes to mind immediately is if we’re taking in the building tenant occupied, New York state is definitely a blue state and eviction laws are heavily favored for the tenant. So I mean, one of the first things we’re looking at when we’re…

deal, whether we’re going keep it or close down is figuring out if we’re inheriting the former tenants or the former owner’s tenants and are they cooperative. Nine times out of 10, if I’m buying a building with existing tenants in place, I’m trying to dump that to another investor where that’s more of their business model.

In addition to that, taking a look at the capital available. Okay, what do we have in our pipeline? What do we have sidelined as far as capital? And trying to cherry pick or pick and choose the projects that were taken down. I generally like your more established or I guess high demand areas when I’m flipping or looking to hold something as a whole.

real simple. If I wouldn’t want to live there, I don’t want to hold it. When we’re holding runnels and things along those lines, that’s the simple way to look at it.

how much manpower we’ve got in the background. we’re juggling give or take 20 flips at a time. And I mean, if it’s purchased deep enough, then it makes sense to let it sit there, but I’m not cool enough to finance my own deals. And if you’re sitting with a 12, 13 % interest rate in the background, interest only payments monthly, that’s gonna eat up a large portion of your budget. I mean, if it’s timeline, I guess is where I’m going there.

Phillip Greiner (27:04.206)
You know, I just don’t like blue houses. We try to wholesale blue houses and we only buy red ones. I’m joking, but I mean, there’s all sorts of criteria in the background.

Mike Hambright (27:15.387)
you

Phillip Greiner (27:18.35)
I love starter homes when we’re flipping.

Mike Hambright (27:18.599)
Yep. Take a minute, Phil, to just share your outlook. What do you think? I’m sorry. Go ahead.

Phillip Greiner (27:28.392)
the video feed glitched I couldn’t hear you.

Mike Hambright (27:34.565)
Yeah, sorry, go ahead, Phil.

Phillip Greiner (27:38.744)
I finished my statement, so you were saying something and I lost you there.

Mike Hambright (27:43.361)
Okay, okay. Where do you see the market going from here? Yeah, there’s a little bit of a lag in the video here. So hopefully, it all works out in the the when it’s final. But talk a little bit about the where you see the market headed where you see your market headed in Buffalo.

Phillip Greiner (27:59.658)
I mean for all intents and purposes we are on the uphill climb. I mean especially compared to the Texas’s, the Florida’s, the California’s, we still have the affordability factor here in New York.

census I believe I already touched on this is finally started to grow there’s people coming into Buffalo I mean are we Dallas specifically absolutely not but I mean we’re starting to glow if that makes sense

Mike Hambright (28:34.021)
Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, you know everybody’s market. One of the things that people say about their competition is same in your market is it is with you like as an individual is like you don’t have to beat Dallas. You just have to beat yourself yesterday.

Phillip Greiner (28:48.233)
Exactly.

Mike Hambright (28:50.191)
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Phil, so you’ve been in Investor Fuel for how long now? You’ve been in for quite a while.

Phillip Greiner (28:57.454)
Going into my fifth year. It’s been a great group. Thank you very much Mike

Mike Hambright (29:00.155)
Wow, that’s amazing. Appreciate having you in the group. Would you mind just kind of sharing your thoughts on, I guess, your kind of five years as being a part of Investor Fuel?

Phillip Greiner (29:10.702)
I mean it’s 110 % a game changer. Whether it’s mindset and just coaching as an individual or a business owner, you always want to take that advice from somebody that’s been there. Don’t call your accountant, don’t call your lawyer. You’re way better off talking to another operator and being able to, I guess, drop yourself in the middle of a couple hundred high level ops.

it’s been nothing but dramatic increase in value from my side of things. Whether it’s the vendors and the sponsors that are part of the group or just having the conversations with other business owners, it’s gone a huge way.

Mike Hambright (29:53.959)
That’s awesome. Glad to have you in the group, buddy. So if folks want to connect with you and learn more, learn what’s going on in Buffalo, maybe buy some houses from you or anything else, like where can they go to learn more?

Phillip Greiner (30:05.466)
You can check us out on the web, buffalobrickandmortar.com. You can hit me up on Facebook. I think it’s just Philip Reiner. We’re on Instagram at brickandmortar. We’re all over the place.

Mike Hambright (30:19.857)
Yeah, okay. We’ll add some links down below in the show notes for folks to come learn more about what you got going on. Learn more about your market and your company. So Phil, thanks for spending some time with us today. Great to see you, buddy.

Phillip Greiner (30:31.742)
Thank you Mike and thank you Investor Fuel.

Mike Hambright (30:33.895)
Yeah, awesome. Yeah, yeah, awesome buddy. Glad you’re a part of it. So guys, hope you got some good value from today. I think at the end of the day, you need to surround yourself with people like Phil that are making it happen, right? It doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been a rough couple of years. You just find ways to kind of pivot our cheese moves and you got to figure out how to move with it. And there’s no better way to do that than kind of surround yourself with folks like Phil or folks that are inside of investor fuel that are ebbing and flowing and figuring out how to navigate those waters. So that’s what that’s why they

so-called pay us the big bucks, right, as you’re willing to kind of take those risks and find out how to navigate the waters instead of just taking your ball and going home, right? So hope you enjoyed today’s show. Appreciate you guys a bunch. We’ll see you next time. Take care.

Phillip Greiner (31:13.973)
Absolutely.