The 1031 Exchange Guide: Transform Your Real Estate Investments Today

John Harcar (00:01.011)
All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to our show. I’m your host, John Harcar, and I’m here today with Patrick Nelson. And what we’re going to talk about is his journey in real estate, but also his passions. 1031 exchange and student housing. Guys, remember, at Investor Fuel, we help real estate investors, service providers. I mean, kind of all real estate entrepreneurs, two to five extra business. And we do it by providing the resources to grow the business they want to grow and live the life that they want to live.

So Patrick, man, welcome to our show.

Patrick Nelson (00:33.634)
John, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

John Harcar (00:35.457)
Yeah, I appreciate you coming on. We’re both from Southern California, so we had a little good conversation offline. But I’m excited to talk about the student housing part, especially because I’ve talked to a few people and I do have some questions. But before we get into all that stuff, tell our audience about you, your background, and what got you to today.

Patrick Nelson (00:54.936)
Sure, love it. So my grandfather had four brothers. They started Nelson Brothers Construction in Utah, 1946. And they worked on things we’ve all been on, like the I-15 freeway, Glen Canyon Dam, stuff like that. And then my dad, he grew up working construction and then moved to Mission Viejo and was actually the general sales manager for the Mission Viejo company, which was the first general planned housing.

in the country. remember going out when they were filling up Lake Mission Viejo and he was selling houses and they were literally like, you know, taking a lottery to see who got the houses for like $39,000. Yeah, exactly. So so I grew up in real estate. I kind of want to say it’s like I’m like the Manning’s, you know, the Manning’s are the greatest athletes, but they had one of the best dads as a quarterback coach. So they’re so good.

John Harcar (01:29.535)
Wow, that’s back in the day of a bunch of orange groves too. Yeah.

John Harcar (01:42.875)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Patrick Nelson (01:43.726)
So I just grew up in real estate and you you guys know the kind of deal like wherever I go to someone’s house, my dad wouldn’t say like, how are doing? They’d be like, look at these windows. didn’t build them big enough for you and all that stuff. just grew up looking at real estate and the opportunities there and it made a whole career out of it.

John Harcar (01:51.658)
haha

So true.

John Harcar (02:00.844)
And that’s funny because sometimes I talk to people who, you know, got in, had that whole family dynamic of real estate and they just like, that’s what they didn’t want to do. But then when they went out to the world and then they got into their thing, they realized that’s really what they did. Right. So how did you, mean, when you made, there was no transition obviously going, cause you knew, right? You kind of knew real estate, but when you got out on your own, like what were some of those types of struggles that you think you started with?

Patrick Nelson (02:26.893)
sure. look, I knew I wanted to be educated. So I got a finance degree from BYU, and then I got an MBA from Utah State. And I actually had my emphasis was entrepreneurship. That’s really what I wanted to do. I didn’t necessarily know it was going to be in real estate. But then my first real job actually, I started a hedge fund back in the know, the early late 1998 99 when this.com I was doing all that.

John Harcar (02:49.332)
Yeah, uh-huh.

Patrick Nelson (02:52.525)
And then the whole market crashed in 2000, right when I graduated from MBA school. And it was just insane. And then all of a I found out about this new 1031 emerging industry that had just come online in 2002 with a new revenue procedure that allowed multiple investors to do a 1031 into one bigger project. And I said, is my future.

John Harcar (03:12.412)
Mm-hmm Did you do you think growing up around the construction part and a lot of that swayed you to the other side the more of the

Patrick Nelson (03:21.308)
Oh, a thousand percent, a thousand percent. So like one of the biggest things I will say that people in real estate get is an ineffective market. So unlike the stock market back in the day, you could buy IBM maybe in New York and sell it for a quarter point more in the Pacific. Now it’s automated, super efficient. Only the market makers can really but real estate, you can literally walk in a neighborhood.

John Harcar (03:23.135)
Yeah.

John Harcar (03:36.096)
Patrick Nelson (03:43.436)
Right and find neighbors within five hours of each other and one’s a way better value than the other just because the seller may or may not understand they may or may not have put stuff into it and then I saw the same opportunity massive opportunity in student housing because every university is its own macro or micro market. So that makes sense so like you know.

John Harcar (03:56.277)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (04:02.386)
Yeah, no, 100%. And I love the idea of student housing. So let’s talk about that for a few. Just because there’s folks on here that maybe don’t have the knowledge and maybe they’re a bit newer. So explain what student housing is versus someone that’s going just go rent an apartment.

Patrick Nelson (04:19.053)
Sure, yeah, student housing, the market essentially is, it’s not the dorms. That’s owned and run by the university, you know, primarily. And so they control all of that. so it’s after they come out of the dorms, it’s where do they live, right? And then there’s all these apartment complexes, there’s basements, there’s people running their houses back from the, I mean, even 1890s. And so, know,

John Harcar (04:40.042)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Nelson (04:42.157)
Guys our age, we all have stories about living in just horrible conditions in student housing because we didn’t care, it was cheap, was by the campus. Now it’s become a huge industry. And I think two years ago or three years ago, there’s a, the only public company was called ACC, American Campus Communities, was purchased by BlackRock for 13 billion. I can’t remember if it’s BlackRock or Blackstone, which one is it on? Anyway, that put it on the map.

John Harcar (04:49.449)
Right.

Patrick Nelson (05:08.171)
And now there’s a lot of people coming in, but it’s still a very, very unique diversified market from, you know, a student parent owning a condo because they think their kid wants to live there for four years, which they don’t usually, or like a big, huge institution that, you know, bought a hundred million dollar project next to a major, major university. And everything in between.

John Harcar (05:12.97)
Yeah.

John Harcar (05:29.3)
Why don’t these universities and colleges have their own type of program where they buy houses and they do that for people?

Patrick Nelson (05:38.104)
You know, some do, you know, like UCI, for example, right here in Orange County, they control all the housing and all that. And even the faculty can stay there. But here’s why it’s a really expensive. Okay. And the real estate and operating and all that. And so most state-run universities are building new buildings and classrooms and trying to stay up with technology and redoing their old campuses and

John Harcar (05:49.12)
Hmm.

Patrick Nelson (06:02.133)
And so their freshman year, the freshman year is very important. It’s our first year. Kids are away. There’s all these studies. What’s better to live in the dorms. But after that, it just doesn’t make economic sense for most state run universities because they have so much better things to do with their with their state funded, you know, funds and all that. And so they leave it to the market and there’s different states, you know, have different rules. Every university has different rules like, you know, private schools like TCU or Notre Dame require sophomores also, and sometimes even juniors like Notre Dame.

It’s usually three years. So it’s only one year of student housing. So it’s a much tougher market than say, for example, Utah Valley University, where we have some properties that has 50,000 kids and no dorms. Right. So all over the place.

John Harcar (06:43.53)
Wow, okay. Got it. And are there special, I know it will probably vary market to market, school to school, like you mentioned, you know, as far as them staying in the dorms, there like different rules or regulations or things that you have to worry about with a student housing versus just, you know, a regular rental?

Patrick Nelson (07:01.805)
That’s funny. I’ll tell you the main thing is students are really tough on your property. They beat it up pretty good, right? But then you also run it out per bedroom. So you tend to get more rent per unit than you do like a normal two bedroom. And so when you underwrite it, you know, after we’ve been doing it for a long time, we know what all the rules of thumb are and you know about how much expense is going to cost. And you have to be able to charge the students and their parents if the kid decides to

John Harcar (07:05.962)
Right.

John Harcar (07:15.892)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Nelson (07:28.257)
you know, rebuild this motorcycle engine in your living room, which they do, or if somebody gets mad and kicks the door in. So you got so you can’t just be like a like an offsite manager that doesn’t really pay attention, right? Because the kids are pretty but once you kind of get under control, you can keep all that and then the other huge thing, this is the biggest difference. You have to be leased up before school starts. Because when school starts, you’re stuck with that, that rent roll for the next 12 months. And if you don’t,

John Harcar (07:55.326)
Right.

Patrick Nelson (07:56.75)
there’s no kids coming until the next fall. I there’s maybe a few right but whereas you know in a multifamily or even if you have like your single family you want to rent it out somebody moves out you know you can clean it up and then just put up for rent somebody’s gonna come to it and rent it. Students you’re dead till the next fall. So that’s a big urgency.

John Harcar (08:10.208)
Right. Yeah, no, that makes sense. That does make sense. I mean, you might have maybe a little bit of influx in between semesters, but most of the time, yeah, I get it. And I was talking to another gentleman, and one of his biggest issues or not issues, but hurdles or challenges with the student housing is funding, finding financing, lending, right? People don’t necessarily want to lend to, I guess they call them boarding houses.

Is it what the technical term might be for student housing? Because he does it around campuses and he just couldn’t find funding. So I don’t know, what is your take on all

Patrick Nelson (08:49.975)
So what’s great about it is in the last probably five to 10 years, it’s become much more of a well-known industry. And so the big lenders are all there, Fannie and Freddie, CNBS, the national banks, even debt funds, life insurance, they all do student housing. But you’ve got to have experience. You’ve got to know what you’re doing because you can’t just walk in and say, want to get a loan and buy even like a 24 bed complex because if you don’t lease up, you can’t make your payments for a year. So you’ve got to be strong enough to feel like

John Harcar (08:59.808)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (09:16.714)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Nelson (09:18.957)
to carry all that. the funding is all over the board and it changes based on who’s given us the best rates and stuff like that. But it’s definitely available. Although you’re not to get high leverage. Most likely you’re going to get 55 to 60 percent. know, we’re sometimes in single family flipping flipping flipping. What is it called? You can get up to 100 percent lending, 90 percent, all this. And maybe you get 75 or 80 percent if you’re doing a value add, you know, redoing the

John Harcar (09:28.544)
Okay.

John Harcar (09:42.121)
Yeah.

Patrick Nelson (09:48.258)
kitchens and interior or something but for the most part it’s capital intensive. That’s why working with someone like us is a much better way for mom and pops to get into student housing than trying to do it yourself.

John Harcar (09:52.255)
Yeah.

John Harcar (10:00.053)
Yeah, he was telling me that because it was a rent by the room situation, they could label it a boarding house and they wouldn’t, he couldn’t get financing for it. It was weird. And I thought that there has to be financing for

Patrick Nelson (10:08.825)
Yeah. Some lenders are like that, like especially if they don’t know it. But now, like I said, the Freddie and Fanny are probably the biggest. Yeah. And they get it. They have special student housing underwriters. got to get to that department. But one of the things when you’re talking about that is a lot of mom and pops will call me, my personal friends, especially when their daughter, son’s going to college and they’re like, hey, should I buy this condo? You know, should I invest in this condo? Because they’re going to be there four years and they can get their friends and they can manage it for me.

John Harcar (10:15.198)
The big ones, okay, got it.

John Harcar (10:36.586)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Nelson (10:37.793)
There’s pros and cons. Let me get that because everyone asked me about that.

John Harcar (10:40.446)
Yeah, please. Yeah, we talked about this before we got on.

Patrick Nelson (10:43.289)
Here’s the big thing. The student housing houses, right? That you’re renting out. They don’t tend to move up. You know, like when when single family, you know, houses take off, you know, like in California, you seem to go nuts or another full Florida or wherever the ones by universities tend not to because there isn’t a bunch of people trying to buy them to live there. So they’re going to be based mostly on the income, like on a cap rate basis. And so you’re really buying it on an income basis. And it’s a lot of work.

John Harcar (11:07.625)
Right.

Patrick Nelson (11:12.173)
because you have kids move out and then here’s what else happens. Your son or daughter, the first year, I highly recommend this. And this is my advice being in for 20 years is have your kids live in the dorms the first year. Their first year away, have RAs, have advisors, they have all these people looking out for them. Let them adjust one year from being away from parents. There’s all sorts of studies done that they get higher grades. The dropout rate goes way down.

John Harcar (11:23.551)
Always.

Patrick Nelson (11:36.878)
Right there, the satisfaction and long-term friends goes way up because they meet other kids their age in the dorms instead of living with someone that’s a senior, that’s whatever, that’s partying or whatever. So it’s way better to do that. Second year, maybe they want to live in your house that you bought, but the third year they want to move somewhere else with some new person, right? Or some new group of kids or whatever. And so most students don’t want to live in the same house and be a manager for three years. Then the parents end up doing it. And also they’re like, I’m doing all this, you know, for

John Harcar (11:42.229)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Nelson (12:06.093)
four kids and I’m I’m barely covering my my mortgage and it just doesn’t work you usually work out so that’s my advice find good student housing and get your kids in the dorm first but if you can buy bigger like if you can buy like a 12 plex it has 30 or 40 beds without you know group of friends like doctors and your alumni and you love the school that’s a much difference and you can get a higher professional management company that’s a different investment

John Harcar (12:12.191)
Right.

John Harcar (12:30.698)
Got it. Okay, so what you’re saying is for folks that have kids going to college, don’t go buy a place for them in a rent out. Instead, do what?

Patrick Nelson (12:40.339)
Instead put them in student housing. Yeah because student housing number one we can lock the doors. You have a management company. The parties go way down and if you buy a house by the way that’s the other thing. If you buy a house what will happen is the parties will be at your house. That’s because there’s nobody watching over your son or daughter throwing the party and if they move out and now you got some other kid as the manager you know and in the student housing we have the parents you know guarantee the leases and the damage.

John Harcar (12:54.292)
Ha ha! True.

John Harcar (13:07.648)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Nelson (13:08.905)
And so it’s much more regular. They don’t really have the parties in our place and all that. They tend to go off campus to the frat houses and the sorority houses and then also to the individual mom and pop houses.

John Harcar (13:20.306)
Right. Got it. Okay. And how do you find these places?

Patrick Nelson (13:25.367)
So that’s another thing. They don’t turn over a lot, right? Because they’re cash cows. So people just hold them. mean, like you have to be just be out there in the market. And I’ve personally been around the country. I’ve been in over a hundred markets, like 15 states, and I’m good friends with the national brokers and the local brokers. And they know that we close, right? And then we know that we know how to underwrite. So we don’t really retrade at the last second. So most of my stuff is just relationships where people call us and say, Hey, I’ll give you the first look.

John Harcar (13:29.045)
Yeah.

John Harcar (13:51.146)
Okay.

Patrick Nelson (13:53.324)
if you want to come buy this thing because there’s not a ton of experts in student housing and we’re not experts everywhere. You know, we try to buy in the same markets and get some economies of scale. So right now, you know, we’re probably in 10 markets. I try to be Rocky Mountains West at this point.

John Harcar (14:06.984)
Nice and it’s all focused around major universities. Are you going for maybe secondary universities like the smaller ones?

Patrick Nelson (14:13.763)
it’s such a great question. That’s the other thing. Everybody wants to buy the university they can watch on TV and the BCS and all. And you know, those are big schools, but like take College Station, Texas A 60,000 kids, but there’s like 70,000 beds built there because there’s just land everywhere. Same with the Florida’s, right? There’s so much. It’s like going to Vegas and go to like Florida State or University of Florida. can just see this and it’s all luxury.

John Harcar (14:18.368)
the right

John Harcar (14:24.064)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (14:29.321)
Right.

Patrick Nelson (14:37.837)
And the luxury housing is really only the top 10 % of the rich kids. All the rest, 90 % of them are on a budget. So we’ve actually made the most money at the, there’s still great schools like the Sacramento States, the Utah State, the Montana States, the college of, university of Northern Arizona, actually Northern Arizona. Yeah, those types of schools because they’re still big schools or great universities. You don’t see them on TV with their football maybe once a year.

John Harcar (14:50.319)
yeah!

John Harcar (14:58.11)
NAU? Uh-huh.

Patrick Nelson (15:07.281)
and you would buy like a C plus property or a C and make it a B minus so it’s nice value it’s way cheaper than new stuff that stuff has worked so well for us.

John Harcar (15:12.158)
Nice, very bad.

John Harcar (15:17.44)
Yeah, I would think that’d be a great place to find the lower value. Like you said, see stuff and value add to it. That’d be a fantastic area. Let’s talk about the other topic, our 1031 exchange. Tell our folks what a 1031 is, why it’s beneficial, why people use it, et cetera.

Patrick Nelson (15:25.922)
Yeah.

Patrick Nelson (15:37.806)
So I personally, I’m a little biased, but I think that 1031 exchange is the greatest way to build wealth in the world. Okay, because a 1031 is a tax code, right? Like 1040 1099. I’m sure most of your real estate people know exactly what it is, but they don’t know to the extent that you can use it. So if basically the what it says, if you have a if you have an investment property and you sell it, you have to identify a new property within 45 days and close within 180 days. And here’s the key, you no taxes.

zero capital gains taxes. And then also our properties cashflow about seven to seven and a half percent on your equity. Okay. So if you put a million dollars with us, you make 75,000 a year and then you get all the depreciation, right? And that shelters the income. The problem is if you sell your property, so let’s say you’ve been having an income in a rental and you’ve been in your account’s been writing it off on the schedule E or whatever. Well, if you sell and don’t do a 10 31, you have to pay recapture taxes on all that income.

John Harcar (16:24.532)
Okay.

John Harcar (16:35.922)
on all that money. Wow. Okay.

Patrick Nelson (16:37.483)
and it’s federal and state. And then you have to pay the capital gains tax. And sometimes between all of that, you actually owe more than you got in proceeds. And it’s upside down. However, with the 1031, you can exchange for life. We call it swap till you drop. And your next of kin will actually inherit it at the stepped up basis. And all of that goes away. And so the biggest issue is people want cash flow. And so that’s what’s great about us is

John Harcar (16:58.784)
Mmm.

Patrick Nelson (17:05.517)
In 2002, changed the laws. They didn’t change it. They actually adapted the laws and made it so we can buy like a $50 million property and we can have up to 50 or 75 investors that sold their deal for a million, put it with us. They don’t lift a finger. And then we put, you know, $75,000 in cash a year, just direct. It’s not going to check in where it’s direct deposit and diversify, you know, across different, the different asset classes. And obviously one of our units will have, you know,

John Harcar (17:26.176)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Nelson (17:35.085)
300-400 beds which is way more diversified than if you have even a duplex with two renters or you have a single family residence your renter moves out you have no income right or if you need a squatter I had a squatter once in one of my condos I had in Irvine took me six months to get them out back in like 09 and when I finally got them out it cost me 15 grand to redo the condo because you have three

John Harcar (17:40.085)
bright.

John Harcar (17:44.586)
Yeah, 100%.

John Harcar (17:56.169)
Yeah, well California’s not a landlord friendly state per se. But let me ask you this, can’t I just do that on my own? Do I need a company to do that with or for me?

Patrick Nelson (18:01.335)
and we’ll

Patrick Nelson (18:08.421)
You can absolutely do it on your own and the difference is as you get older, Time becomes your biggest, you know, your most precious commodity. And then the problem is, so let’s say you bought a typical investor. They bought like a rental house in 1995, 400 grand. Right now it’s worth 1.8 million. Right. And maybe they have two or three of them. If they sell it.

What are they going to go buy for 1.8 million to buy another rental house that they got a renter or a rehab and you can always make money in real estate. That’s my thing. No matter what the market’s doing with blood, sweat and tears, but at 70 72, you don’t have the time. You don’t care about it. So instead you can roll it into us and you can put 1.8 million with 600,000 and three of our properties, one in Oregon, one in Utah, one in Brooklyn, New York in one of our lower income, high yield housing.

John Harcar (18:39.433)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (18:42.976)
You

Patrick Nelson (18:55.949)
And you don’t lift a finger. We do all the negotiation. And then the other thing is your buying power is 1.8 million. You’re competing with all the other house slippers. Everybody else where we come in, we buy hundreds of millions a year. So I have a lot of leverage with both lenders and and brokers out there. Brokers will flip me a deal because they don’t want to go through open houses and do all the work and they want to just give it to me. And we close on it 60 days and they get the commission. We all wait in that kind of buying power.

John Harcar (19:05.152)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (19:19.604)
Right.

Patrick Nelson (19:25.973)
Unless you have a big fund behind you or something like that, you just can’t compete. right now we have four properties available are coming up and none of them were on the market. We bought them all or put them under contract all off market. One of them is actually coming out of our portfolio. We’ve had it for 10 years and now it’s in a perfect position to be rehabbed.

John Harcar (19:38.015)
Nice.

John Harcar (19:44.66)
What if I want money out of these properties instead?

Patrick Nelson (19:48.952)
So they’re not liquid per se like the stock market, but because we have so many investors and we have way more demand, we usually tell people if they’ll give us 60 days that we can buy them out or we’ll take them out usually at par value or if it’s gone up a little bit, you can negotiate that and or we try to sell our properties about every three to four years. And at that point, you can either roll again with us and our new property. You can pay taxes. You can buy your own super flexible.

John Harcar (20:14.356)
Got it. Got it. Okay. And before we talk to you, also talked about some funds and some other stuff you’re working with. Why don’t you kind of, you know, share with us what you’re doing.

Patrick Nelson (20:24.033)
So we’re doing something really exciting right now. We’re coming out with a new Icon America high yield low income housing fund. So it’s going to start at seven and half percent. As I mentioned, we’re closing on a billion dollar portfolio of low income housing. And when I say low income, it’s not section eight, it’s not section eight, but the average rents about seven hundred seven fifty. And you can’t build that stuff like you can’t go by the land and then build.

And what’s great about these housing too, is they’re all like single story. They’re about 25 yards from each other. It feels like a neighborhood. There’s no way you can go buy land with like six, seven acres and build 90 units on it only and make it pencil at 700 bucks. And so they’ve been 95 % full for, you know, 10 years. And it’s just, call them swan investments. Sleep well at night. They’re just super boring. And you make nice income and you write it off with the tax shelter with the depreciation.

John Harcar (20:56.192)
That’s cool.

John Harcar (21:10.154)
Wow.

John Harcar (21:15.05)
We’d love that.

Patrick Nelson (21:19.373)
And we do it all for you. And then with this fund, then when the property sells, the fund rolled into a new deal and keep all your money working for you. So instead of paying 40 % between capital gain tax and depreciation, if you were to cash out, we keep 100 % of your capital gains rolling and make a 30 40%, which is our average result, right? Your income is going from seven and a half to seven and a half on, you know, 130 % of your next investment. Now you’re making 10 or 11.

John Harcar (21:36.703)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Nelson (21:48.94)
and just keep on going. And here’s the other great thing, our debt is 10 year interest only about four and a quarter. Okay. And that’s our cap rate. You know, our debt coverage ratio is like over two, if you know what that means. And it’s just super boring, but it’s amazing.

John Harcar (21:55.367)
nice.

John Harcar (22:02.58)
Mm-hmm.

Super boring. You said it exactly perfect. It’s just super boring, but it’s stuff you got to know. If folks want to invest with you, they want to talk to you about your funds. They want to just learn more about 1031 or student housing. How do they get in touch with you or your company? You prefer.

Patrick Nelson (22:21.805)
icon1031.com that’s it. We’re a small family run business so you know we don’t do a ton of properties and so we sell out a lot but yeah icon1031.com and we answer all the questions and we really just want what’s best for you there’s lots of strategies like one of your last guests I think his name was Mike Zuber I think

John Harcar (22:25.01)
Icon1031.

Patrick Nelson (22:46.029)
He was talking about you buy for rental properties or something when you’re 30. Then when you’re 60 of all this money, right? The problem is turning it into cash. So now you can sell one or two of those even better. You can refinance it, get money out tax free and then sell it and then roll it into ours. And we have 50 % debt. So we cover the debt from the 1031 non recourse to you. And now we turn it into cash flow, right? So a couple million bucks, 140,000 a year tax sheltered and you didn’t lift a finger. So we’ve got a great destination.

John Harcar (22:46.335)
Hmm.

John Harcar (23:06.495)
Awesome.

Patrick Nelson (23:15.693)
place for those people that are done doing all the blood sweat and tears and shoveling driveways and renting properties and clean it up and trying to negotiate and get in and they’re just, yeah you get it. So that’s kind of a great ending spot for these type of people. It’s a five billion dollar industry right now.

John Harcar (23:22.046)
Yeah

John Harcar (23:34.1)
Wow, that’s incredible. Guys, if you or you know anybody that can benefit or use this knowledge or information, I hope you took notes and I hope you took down the website. Reach out, talk with Patrick and find out, you know, anything that you want to know. Patrick, thank you, man, for coming on. You shared a wealth of stuff. I mean, I got half a page of notes here. You couldn’t tell I was writing, but yeah, I got a lot of stuff here. And guys, I hope you took good notes too and I hope you really enjoyed this episode. Patrick, thank you again and we’ll see you on the next one.

Cheers.