Active vs. Passive Investing: What Every Investor Should Know

Stephen S. (00:03.254)
Welcome to the show where we interview the nation’s leading real estate entrepreneurs Welcome back to the show if you’re joining us for a second third or hundredth time It’s your host Stephen Schmidt and I am here today with Chris Parrinello and We are going to have an incredible conversation today about his experience He’s been in the real estate space for over 11 years in private equity He is responsible for raising over five hundred million dollars and pulling that

and we’re gonna get right into it. Just remember before we do, at Investor Fuel, we help real estate investors, service providers, and real estate entrepreneurs, 2 to 5X their businesses to allow them to build the businesses they’ve always wanted, to allow them to live the lives they’ve always dreamed of. That being said, Chris, welcome to the show.

Chris Parrinello (00:47.917)
Thanks, Stephen. Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Stephen S. (00:50.55)
I said your last name right, didn’t I? Okay, perfect. All right, sweet. I realized as soon as I hit record, I was like, man, I forgot to ask how to say his last name. So we’re gonna wing it and then I’ll just see if I got it right. man. So Chris, before we kind of get into our topics of today, I know we’re gonna talk about your experience.

Chris Parrinello (00:52.781)
You did, Paranello, that’s right. Lots of people get it wrong and you killed it.

Chris Parrinello (01:01.795)
Yes.

Stephen S. (01:14.222)
We’ve got a couple questions already written down. We’re gonna talk a lot about multifamily active versus passive investing. But before we do all of that, can you share a little bit about yourself and how you got here for our listeners?

Chris Parrinello (01:26.145)
Yeah, absolutely. I’ll give you the abridged version. It’s a long story, I, know, graduating college, I really thought that I was going to be working in manufacturing. I studied Chinese in business, you know, moved out there. The moment where my focus shifted and I started working in something I didn’t anticipate was helping a Chinese high net worth individual find real estate in United States. And it launched a career in real estate that led to

me working in Southern California for an EB-5 regional center where I was focused on raising capital all over the world based off of the experience I built there by accident while I was in China. And then it moved into multifamily development and acquisitions. And what I’ve learned over that 11, 11 and a half years is in order to raise capital for anything and in order to be successful in investor relations, it just takes authenticity.

doing your research, knowing what you’re working with and really building strong relationships. This day and age, things have changed a lot as far as automations and ways that you can cold call or build processes. But at the end of the day, real estate is and forever will be a relationship business. And that’s where my focus has always been.

Stephen S. (02:47.118)
What are some of the things that you’ve done to build really solid relationships within this space?

Chris Parrinello (02:53.325)
Yeah, I think at the core of building solid relationships is having authenticity. And I think that for me, where my shtick has always been, especially going from institutional capital raising to more of a retail investor base with Viking Capital, a lot of people, like you need to build trust. And in order to build trust, you need to talk about the things that are a little bit more uncomfortable.

So I’ve always, and when I train and mentor my team as we’re raising capital in this market, I like, don’t be scared to talk about risk. You need to, like, in fact, what I would say is that if you aren’t hearing about risk from the person that you’re putting money with, you should probably run the other direction. That is, and I think if you can detail and you can help folks understand how to protect themselves with investing with you and your firm or…

with any of the firms that they might be diversifying with, you’ll be able to build trust a lot faster than just explaining to them how you’re gonna get to a 2X.

Stephen S. (03:58.286)
Man that’s so good, you know, yeah, I’ve never heard anybody put it so succinctly but if you don’t hear about risk run and I think I thought back when you said that like just a flash went off in my brain of all the times I’ve seen people get just absolutely handed to them in investments was when it was always upside no potential downside, right? it’s and you know, I think that goes back to the whole principle of things being too good to be true. So

What are some of the ways, because I think authenticity, I think you hit a really good point there. Authenticity is something that we’re really lacking today, I think in most arenas. Is there a benefit to being more of a transactional person and being authentic of saying, hey, if we have a relationship because we do a transaction in your space, that there’s benefit from that? Or is it all relationship before transaction?

Chris Parrinello (04:53.539)
I think authenticity gets, made up from several different things. know, people can tell when you truly care. So like if you’re trying to explain something because you’re checking a box, it doesn’t come off as authentic. If you have integrity. So if if people feel like you have integrity and you’re discussing really tough topics and maybe, you know, what I found in real estate, like when I’m going through a model and we’re in our investment committee, there’s a lot of things that we find where like we’re not positive.

We don’t have a crystal ball. And brushing over that stuff when you’re talking to an investor, it comes off as less authentic. If you go in there and you’re like, look, we think that we’re being conservative, but there are times in the last few years where we thought we were being conservative and we weren’t conservative enough. There’s times where we were too conservative and things panned out way better. And what I found that the piece that has always built

the most trust with an investor recently is helping them understand that my goal in investor relations is helping them identify what their risk appetite is and seeing if it matches ours. I’m not trying to sell you on investing with me. We’re either a good fit for each other or.

Stephen S. (06:08.014)
Yeah, 100%. Now, let me ask you this. What do you think is more important in the realm of venture capital in terms of moving the ship forward, marketing or sales?

Chris Parrinello (06:21.891)
Great question. So I think that they’re equally important, which is kind of a cop out of an answer. But to give you real life experience of how this worked for me, when Viking hired me, they hired me to come and be the head of investor relations. And they thought investor relations and marketing were one in the same. And many companies do. And after a year of rolling up my sleeves and doing all of the work, I went to the CEO and I said,

Stephen S. (06:28.757)
I agree.

Chris Parrinello (06:50.743)
Guys, I’m not excellent at marketing. I can do it, I’m smart, I can do things above average. You really wanna unlock this thing. You wanna reach people. You need somebody that can build out proper KPIs for marketing, that understands how paid ads versus organic work. I know some of the lingo now, a year and a half ago, before I convinced the company to go out and find a growth marketing executive, I didn’t know any of this stuff. I’m talking to marketing agencies.

that I won’t say they were ripping us off, but I didn’t even know how to hold them accountable because it’s not my strong point. And what I’ve learned is that in the digital age, you know, it is equally important. Capital raising, you need solid marketing and someone that really, someone at the helm that really knows what they’re doing. And luckily we were able to identify someone like that and she’s been fantastic. She’s the reason why I’m on this podcast with you.

Stephen S. (07:40.398)
I know we talked a little bit about the show. had to throw that in there because that’s the age-old question I think in in business that a lot of us ask especially like in a sales environment is you know, what’s more important marketing or sales and you know, it’s it’s to your exact point I don’t think it’s a cop-out answer. I think they’re equally important and You know from I guess maybe a business building standpoint marketing theoretically

I guess could be a higher focus maybe. Because if your sales conversations are easy to where it’s like taking orders, I think any business, I’ve never met a business owner that was like, you know what, I want my salespeople to really just have to like grind to get sales. Like if they could make it easy to where everybody bought and they could do that through marketing, I think everybody would, right? But ultimately,

Chris Parrinello (08:30.445)
Yeah.

Stephen S. (08:32.607)
It’s a matter of having a cohesive blend between the two. So think you answered that perfectly. So tell us a little bit more about, yes, yes, I completely agree with you. Do you wanna expand on that maybe a little bit?

Chris Parrinello (08:38.603)
and it’s very clever.

Chris Parrinello (08:46.753)
Yeah, I can give you an example that if one of the mindset of saying sales is more important than marketing, can kind of debunk that with one collaboration that has been immensely helpful for me. So as a sales executive, it’s common knowledge that you get asked the same thing over and over over over over over again. What I’ve been able to identify with our marketing director,

is that if I intelligently write down all of those questions and then give it to my marketing director, see, the extent of my team having to do the work is just logging the questions. Now she can go out and in her marketing answer all of those questions before anyone ever gets to me. This is like 10X my efficiency because now people are coming prepared with enough knowledge to where it is an easy sale and people are warm because they’ve been nurtured. So in our company, there’s

collaborative natures between multiple departments like IR and marketing are basically the same silo and asset management and acquisitions are basically the same silo and Finance and operations are basically the same silo those pairs have to be so succinct because if you can’t trust the other person on that side if you’re an Acquisitions guy and your asset manager doesn’t trust you

then your acquisitions guy is going to do a bunch of deals with a bunch of assumptions that can’t actually come true. And the asset manager guy is going to be like, you set me up for failure. And it’s just true of so many of those different divisions. But I very much believe when you have team collaboration and everything comes together, everyone’s rolling in the right direction, you will 10x your

Stephen S. (10:31.214)
I 100 % agree with you. Even more simply put for some of our listeners is I actually heard an entrepreneur, very, very high level entrepreneur, almost billionaire, who put it like this. says, here’s what makes a successful business. You have to have more leads than you can handle. Your sales conversations have to be easy. Your fulfillment has to be on autopilot. And he goes, once you get that right, you can walk away from the business and then run without you.

And so to your point, you’re 100 % right. Each different apartment broken down from those three heads, they have to work in collaboration and succinctly in order to achieve the overall goal, which I think most people start businesses to eventually, hopefully walk away from them. They might not think that, but at the same time, who wants to work 100 hours a week for the rest of their life? You know what I mean?

Chris Parrinello (11:22.731)
Right, and that big hairy thing is you do all of those things and you’re right, you can walk away the business unless there’s a lot of key man risk. And if you are the business and you’re the one that’s driving company culture, then you don’t ever get to leave the business.

Stephen S. (11:31.128)
Yeah, that is true.

Stephen S. (11:37.688)
That is a very fair point. I’ve got a good friend of mine building a very large company. He’s about to make an acquisition and double his company size. They’re already an eight figure company. And we were just talking about insurance for him because he’s like, dude, if something happens to me, we just turned into an ESOP, employee stock ownership program for anybody unfamiliar with that term. But he’s like, dude, if something happens to me, the business will literally die in six months. Like we could have, we did, you know, 15 million last year. We’re going to do

Chris Parrinello (11:39.796)
Hahaha.

Stephen S. (12:06.734)
probably 25 next year with this acquisition. And he’s like, but if something happens to me, it’ll all crumble within six months. And so to your point, you’ve got a very valid point there. Kind of moving on a little bit. Tell me a little bit more about what you guys are doing in Viking specifically, what your guys’ focus is, and maybe some of that balance of when you become a really great option for an investor versus them continuing to actively invest with their time and their money.

in the multi-family space since I know that’s where you play.

Chris Parrinello (12:38.209)
Yeah, no, and this is something that I coach a lot of our investors on because a lot of the folks that reach out to us.

are active in multifamily. And I tell them, you’re always going to get the most ROI by combining your capital with your sweat equity. So if you’re willing to do the work, you’re willing to be a landlord, you’re going to cut out the middleman, which is Viking doing all the work and keeping a portion of the carried interest for its efforts. So if you’re able to do that and scale it and it’s something you’re passionate about and you love, then do it until you don’t want to continue scaling.

Then at that point, if you’ve realized the power of investing in a great inflation hedge, multi-family real estate, there’s so many positives for it. It’s not always the best choice, but tried, tested, and true over time, really great risk adjusted returns, and it’s a scalable business when you get to the institutional level. So what I’d say is when you get to that point where your bandwidth is your priority,

or you’re trying to work yourself out of doing all of the management and operations, if you have a few reliable sponsors that you trust and that you think do a good job, putting your money to work for you passively is gonna be more scalable than continuing to pump into things actively.

Stephen S. (14:03.362)
Yeah, that completely makes sense. So why do you, what do you like about being in the space of private equity? What, do you really see as the, know, maybe it’s a selfish thing or maybe it’s because of who you guys serve, but what do you really like about the space?

Chris Parrinello (14:18.697)
Me personally, I think that it’s allowed me to build some of the best relationships that I’ll have for the rest of my life. And that goes into being authentic and investors that I’ve met in every stop of the way, whether it was a family trying to get a green card in California Golden Fund when I was managing that private equity firm or someone that I built a connection with at my previous stop, even if I changed shops.

You know, these people, you we’ve spent a lot of time together. We’ve learned together. We’ve failed together. We’ve succeeded together. So I think that piece is the part that excites me the most about this space. But specifically real estate, I just think that there’s a lot of upside and there’s a lot of ways that you can protect your downside. And you have a little bit more control because at least when you’re investing in single asset acquisitions or developments,

you get to do a lot of due diligence on the front end. Now, blind pool funds are a little bit different because you have to have a lot of trust with the sponsor to give them money before you know what you’re buying. But it’s really easy to learn about real estate. think doing the real estate is hard. So I don’t think I would ever make the argument that anyone could do real estate fail-proof. It’s hard to be in this space, but learning about it, learning how it works, learning how, you know, if you track

historical trends like employment growth and population growth and how different areas are going to be coming up several years down the road and you use different debt instruments to kind of protect your downside risk. There’s a lot of ways that you can mitigate your risk and keep quite a bit of control in your portfolio that you lose when you invest in traditional equities.

Stephen S. (16:01.644)
Yeah. What was there a defining moment or deal that made you realize I’m all in on this space?

Chris Parrinello (16:10.371)
I would say it’s starting my career. like if you look at my resume, it shows that I was a managing director at California Golden Fund for eight and a half years. But really the way that worked is I moved back from China and I didn’t have a job and somebody took a chance on me and they hired me to be an analyst. And it was a company called Cosmon companies and they kind of, it’s a

been around since the 80s. Larry Cosmot was one of the youngest city managers. was like 25 or 26 years old. They made him city manager of a city in California. And I got this insane amount of mentorship for almost a decade. And after six months, they made me managing director of their private equity firm because they were really impressed with work ethic, the fact that I spoke Chinese and they really thought I could take this company somewhere it hadn’t been. Getting that level of mentorship, had never

Stephen S. (16:51.726)
Mm.

Stephen S. (17:03.437)
Yeah.

Chris Parrinello (17:07.551)
achieved before. And it’s something I’ve taken with me where I almost exclusively hire interns. Like if you’re going to work for Viking in my department, I’m not going to go out and find the most qualified person. I’m to get a really young person that’s still in college and I’m going to mentor them the way I was mentored because that is the part that I think is really special. And that’s the thing that really opened my eyes to the space when I got that level of guidance.

I knew I was gonna do it for the rest of my life.

Stephen S. (17:40.268)
Do you that’s a really interesting thing you just brought up there about how you source people people for your department. Is there some

form of value that you see in finding somebody in more of a precocious state like that versus somebody that has the seasoning on them that have been doing it for a decade or something along those lines. What? Why? Why do do it that way?

Chris Parrinello (18:02.465)
Yeah, I mean, there’s pros and There’s pros and cons. If you don’t have someone in your lead role that can be like almost a player coach, then you have to go out and hire somebody that can. But it gets very expensive to go out and hire the best talent at every step of the rung. And you don’t need to like tried and true 10 years of experience, A players in every spot on your team.

In fact, I would argue that you don’t have the right leader if they can’t build and mentor people in that space. So the other big piece that you lose when you’re hiring out is a lot of people are going to be really excellent, but when they’re really excellent, you bring them in to your system that’s different. You want them to run your system. They might think that they know how to do it better. They might have habits that you need to kind of remove and you haven’t had the time to build trust with these people.

to where when you mentor someone and they come in and they’re grateful to just learn from you. And then two, three years go down the road and they’re like, wow, like you took me from young college kid that didn’t understand how the world worked to now I’m like a professional in private equity. Like the guys that did that for me, like today they call me, I haven’t worked for them in several years. They asked me for a favor and I’m like, whatever you guys need, I’m there for you. Because it’s that level of loyalty that you build when you change someone’s life like.

Stephen S. (19:25.39)
Mm.

Chris Parrinello (19:30.893)
prepare them for the world.

Stephen S. (19:32.93)
Yeah, yeah, I love that answer. That’s so good. Are there markets that you might be bullish on over the next five to 10 years and why would that be?

Chris Parrinello (19:47.011)
Yeah, absolutely. What I’ve seen and I think if you look at multifamily over the last, call it from the great financial crisis to now, you’ve kind of been in like a down period that trended up all the way until like the early 20s, 21, 22, peaked. You had a little kind of fall off and then you basically had because of historically low debt, just a ton of supply.

historical amounts of supply come online. So if you look at the state of the market right now, you’re in kind of this trough. And there’s tons, like right now is a great time. It doesn’t feel like that, but that’s why like the people that are brave enough to go out at the great time, it’s not always obvious, but when you can recognize trends, you can get a fantastic basis that didn’t exist a couple of years ago. And in real estate, when you talk to real tenured real estate people,

people that have 20, 30 years on me, what they tell you is like the most important thing is like your basis. So that going in basis, the cap rate that you’re paying, being able to get a discount to replacement costs, like all of these type of models to evaluate whether you’re getting a good deal, they exist right now. And they didn’t exist two and a half years ago. Some people are still feeling the pain from a bloated market or a frothy market that kind of popped a little bit.

But I think that what I’ve seen and how I drive, we do an investment committee at our company where everyone that’s an executive has a seat at the table and we pressure test every deal we do. Now, obviously the acquisitions guy is like, he’s like, I want to do every deal. The asset management guy is like, I need to do a deal that isn’t going to be too hard to manage. And I’m the frame point of, I know what our investors are looking for.

These are the returns that they’d like to take this risk. These are the areas they like. And what we’ve identified is some of the markets that were really overbuilt. If you can get like past a six cap, six and a half cap, where in 22 they were trading in a four cap, like game on, buy those projects. If you can’t, because you take less risk, the tertiary markets around those areas have had years to catch up and they didn’t have the declines in rent.

Chris Parrinello (22:10.103)
They didn’t have the bad debt issues, some of the overbuilt markets. And one thing that I think is being very slept on right now, but maybe at the institutional levels is all of this new supply that came online has pretty much been absorbed. So no one thought that was going to happen. Everyone thought we’d have like 50 % of the absorption of the new units coming on and the economics of what it costs to build those properties. Like they’ve run through their concessions that they had built into their models.

Stephen S. (22:10.542)
Hmm.

Stephen S. (22:31.672)
Mm.

Chris Parrinello (22:38.915)
And now they have to go back up to the market to what those rents were going to be before they had two or three months to use as concessions. So I think a lot of these properties that maybe looked like duds a couple of years ago, where you’re like, man, I thought I was going to get 4 % rent growth. got none, or I got minus 1%. You can already see as we’re tracking the 30 deals in our portfolio, those deals are now at 1%. And then two months later, they’re at 1.5%.

Stephen S. (22:58.243)
Hmm.

Chris Parrinello (23:08.195)
They’re all trending in the right direction. And if you were smart enough to build in duration into your loan instruments, like this is going to be a wave where a lot of people I think are gonna build wealth with real estate.

Stephen S. (23:20.206)
It makes a ton of sense. I think we’re going to do something new on the show. I’m going to call this our…

I don’t know what I’m gonna call it. I’m gonna have to come up with some creative name for it later, but I wanna do just like, almost like a hot seat, like rapid fire question, list of questions with you. You down to try that out?

Chris Parrinello (23:40.757)
Yeah, I’ll try to keep my long winded answer short.

Stephen S. (23:44.174)
All right, so these what’ll be actually cool is is like no explanation just like as quick answers as possible And then if you want to dive into it afterwards the last question is more of a you can take a little bit longer to answer because it is more of a thought like a more thoughtful thing, but these are just gonna be some rapid fires that I’ll that I personally am curious to know so All right, you ready? We got that drum roll music. Can you guys play that? Nobody’s actually in the studio with me. I’m just pretending like they are

Chris Parrinello (23:59.35)
Okay.

Chris Parrinello (24:13.079)
Good.

Stephen S. (24:14.542)
All right, drum roll, here we go. Cap rate or cash flow.

Chris Parrinello (24:18.947)
Cap rate.

Stephen S. (24:20.418)
Favorite real estate book or podcast currently.

Chris Parrinello (24:24.611)
Willie Walker’s podcast.

Stephen S. (24:27.306)
Last big mistake that taught you something.

Chris Parrinello (24:31.945)
Does it have to be my mistake? Using variable rate loans.

Stephen S. (24:37.87)
Say that one more time. I didn’t catch that.

Chris Parrinello (24:39.299)
using variable rate loans. So short-term debt for long-term holds.

Stephen S. (24:42.67)
Mmm.

Heard, Class A, B, or C properties. Pick one to a portfolio around.

Chris Parrinello (24:50.751)
Right now, class A. Yeah, class A.

Stephen S. (24:52.236)
Yeah, with current market trends. Class A, if you weren’t in private equity, last question, by the way, if you weren’t in private equity, what would you be doing?

Chris Parrinello (25:02.701)
something related to Sports finance, something like that, yeah.

Stephen S. (25:04.877)
Really?

Stephen S. (25:08.504)
Nice, awesome. Okay, so out of those questions, and then we’ll start wrapping up pretty quick. That was the rapid fire. Thanks for playing the game with me here.

Chris Parrinello (25:15.755)
loved that, by the way, that was really fun.

Stephen S. (25:18.67)
Awesome, it’s great. So let me ask you this, about the big mistake, that was the one thing that really stood out to me. Can you say that answer one more time, which was using variable.

Chris Parrinello (25:29.281)
Yeah, I said the idea of using short term debt instruments for things that are historically long term holds. And the idea there is variable rate loans.

Stephen S. (25:37.344)
Awesome.

And why, why was that or why is that a mistake that you see people making?

Chris Parrinello (25:45.123)
So I’ll break it down for you this way. So in 2021 and 2020, you had a Fed funds rate at pretty much zero. So whether you’re buying single family, whether you’re buying institutional multifamily, historically low debt is what you were getting. Now the argument for using a variable rate loan was you’re getting it from a debt fund. The agencies are gonna give you maybe 60 to 70 % LTV.

But a debt fund would give you up to 95 % LTV. So the amount of equity you had to raise to do a deal was very low. And your rate was very low if rates stayed low. Now, one of the biggest ways to mitigate your risk, we said you have a lot of control when you invest in real estate. The biggest ways to mitigate your risk in every really big spot like Blackstone, KKR, like big real estate sponsors that are brokerages even now.

understand that when you usually buy these deals, you put a 10-year debt instrument on it. There’s upside and downside to that. The upside is you have flexibility. If shit hits the fan, you have all of this time of the fixed rate loan to where you can figure out what to do. The downside is that if you want to exit that quickly, you’re have to pay prepayment, yield maintenance, or defeasance in order to sell that deal in three or four years, as opposed to hold onto it for the full 10-year duration. Equity.

that we raise, anyone raises, usually pretty impatient. So people love the idea of making a buck very quickly. Usually doesn’t work out that way. So the trap was in 2018, 2019, 2020, a lot of money was leaving traditional darlings of commercial real estate. Think commercial office, think hospitality.

COVID made it even worse. COVID happened, money just drained out of those areas because it almost killed them. Commercial office and hospitality just got murdered. Where did that money go? Institutional multifamily, because what people found was when the world stopped and people couldn’t buy groceries or toilet paper, they paid the rent. And that was one of the things that was a solid foundation for multifamily. Like, holy crap, we’ve had this wrong. Multifamily is really the darling of commercial real estate.

Chris Parrinello (28:02.723)
All this institutional money pours in, all of this non-institutional money pours in, and you see cap rates going from the mid fives to where they are historically, fives and sixes, compressing down all the way into the low fours and the low threes, high threes. So think about it from if you are a multifamily sponsor and you were buying in 2018, 2019, 2020, thinking everything was just gonna be equilibrium, and you sold in 2019, 2020, 21, and even parts of 2022,

you murdered the game. And what it looked like to the casual observer who hadn’t been in real estate for 30 years was cap rates are just gonna keep compressing because this is the best asset class. Now, what made the music stop in your proverbial game of musical chairs is in 2022, the Fed said, holy crap, we printed too much money, too much quantitative easing, like interest rates have to go up and we’re gonna do something historically unprecedented.

we’re gonna raise the federal funds rate from zero to 525 basis points in a six month duration. And that has never happened before. So when that happened, it literally just sent shockwaves through commercial real estate. And who particularly got caught without a seat was people that were speculating on multifamily with short term loans. Maybe they had one, two, three years of rate cap insurance.

But if you had a 10-year loan, this didn’t affect you at all. In fact, right now, you’re probably selling your property with a 3.6 fixed, assumable loan for another five years. You’re in the money. But if you aren’t, you’ve been playing the game of, got to pay for another year of a rate cap insurance. I got to negotiate with a lender to extend the loan. And it wasn’t that everyone at that time was making bad decisions. Viking made that decision in some cases, and we’ve had to work through that.

Now, the problem is that in hindsight, it’s always 2020. You would have gotten lower LTV. You might not have been able to do the deal. You definitely wouldn’t have gotten your model to probably work with an extra 30 % needed of equity. But the prudent thing to have done would have been to use long-term debt. So I think that’s a mistake that any real estate sponsor that lived through that.

Chris Parrinello (30:29.687)
and was smart enough to be able to be nimble and navigate through it and get to the other side, they’re gonna be okay. Those deals will do fine with time. But I can guarantee you that the next time that this same thing happens, they’ll do things differently, ourselves included.

Stephen S. (30:44.238)
Yeah, love it. That’s so much value. And I’m sure if all of you listeners are getting as much out of this as I am, you’re gonna be off to the races here. So Chris, I’m super thankful, grateful that you were able to make the show today. If anyone wants to learn more about you or what you’re working on, where should they go for that?

Chris Parrinello (31:02.391)
Yeah, absolutely. Go to VikingCapLLC.com. That’s our website. My wife and I also do a podcast. It’s called Wealth Unfiltered. You’ll find it there on the website. It isn’t really focused on Viking Capital. It’s more building wealth in general. So if you think what I say has value, there’s a lot of it there. And happy to hear from you. If you’re a potential investor, you want to learn more about what Viking does.

work with my team, get on my calendar. I’d be happy to have calls with anyone that’s listening and explain what we have going on.

Stephen S. (31:36.91)
Well folks, hope you enjoyed today’s show and we’ll see you on the next episode. Thanks again, Chris.

Chris Parrinello (31:42.903)
Thank you.