Lemons to Lemonade in Real Estate Investing

Mike:Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. Today I’m talking to my buddy John Harcar. He wore some formal apparel for us here. As you can see if you’re watching the videos, he’s got a tuxedo T-shirt on, Investor Fuel Tuxedo T-shirt actually. Today we’re going to talk about how a lot of times on the shows, you guys, let’s face it, we’ve done over 1,500 shows and we tend to talk more about the positive side of the business and everything. And John’s been through some difficult things and a couple decisions that he’s made and his business has swayed a couple of ways. And the truth is, is all successful real estate investors have been through some challenges. So we’re going to talk about how it’s important to make lemonade when life throws you some lemons.
Professional real estate investors know that it’s not really about the real estate. In fact, real estate is just a vehicle to freedom. A group of over 100 of the nation’s leading real estate investors from across the country meet several times a year at the Investor Fuel Real Estate Mastermind to share ideas on how to strengthen each other’s businesses, but also to come together as friends and build more fulfilling lives for all of those around us. On today’s show we’re going to continue our conversation of fueling our businesses and fueling our lives. I’m glad you’re here.
Hey, John, welcome to the show.
John:Hey, Mike, how are you?
Mike:I’m good.
John:I hope you don’t mind and like my tuxedo shirt dressed up for the occasion.
Mike:Yeah. I didn’t know it was a formal event. I’m just wearing a polo here.
John:Well, I got that shirt and I looked at it, and I’m like, “I’ve never worn this thing.” What a fitting occasion, especially because it was your birthday yesterday. So I’m dressing up for that too.
Mike:It’s funny. Oh, yeah. So it’s funny. For those of you that don’t know, we have our Investor Fuel Mastermind events, and we do a lot of stuff with T-shirts. And we had a casino charity event at our last event, so raised some money for charity and raised a bunch of money. It was a lot of fun, and a lot of us played all sorts of . . . we had a whole bunch of gaming stuff going on, blackjack, poker, craps, roulette, all sorts of stuff. But we made tuxedo T-shirts for the event, which just contributed to the fun.
So, but John, so tell a little bit about your background for those that don’t know who you are, and we’re going to kind of get into some topics today that I think we’re going to just kind of be real with people about how life is not always roses certainly as entrepreneurs. And the truth is net it’s a great business, but you have to overcome some obstacles along the way. But kind of tell us your background of how you got started in real estate investing.
John:Well, I started in real estate as a whole I guess when I was working with ReboGateway. I was their data provider, and it is funny, I got hired with ReboGateway and I didn’t know a thing about real estate. I just learned as I went, you know, and that will be a theme of this call, I guess. But as I learned, I grew that ,and I started talking with investors. Sean Terry was the first one we worked with, and it just exploded from there. I mean, I tried to get you to buy some of my debt or purchase for your students. And then, you know, after that grew, I kind of knew that with that company I was kind of sealing down a little bit, and I got invited to Tom Krol’s event and I heard Brent Daniels talk about TTP, the cold calling.
And, you know, my background in business for 20 years has been cold calling centers, starting cold calling centers. So I kind of figured like that’s it, that’s what I need to do and started doing that. Had an opportunity to come out here to Vegas and do a call center and just really took off in April, nor no, August of last year. I went full time, made the leap. I was making a great six figure income with ReboGateway and maybe it wasn’t the time. I’ve outlived my time there, so it was time for me to jump out and jump full force.
Mike:What happened is you were selling data to probably lots of different businesses.
John:Yeah.
Mike:You saw this niche of real estate investors and what they’re doing with data and how they need data and started moving in that direction. And you shared with me before, I know, and this is common. Like people could be realtors, they could be lenders, there are other things and they see, “Wow, I’m working with that person or I know that person or I’m trying to sell them something or trying to work with them in another way. And it seems like they’re making a lot more money than I am. What am I doing here?” So that’s kind of what you, that’s how you got introduced, right?
John:Yeah, I think exactly how I told you was I was tired of seeing other people post those big checks online on Facebook that I had literally talked to about two weeks before. And it’s funny, in our conversation earlier you mentioned the All In guys. Yeah, I remember talking with like Sal Shakir and Carlos years ago, you know, when they were just getting data from us, like asking me like, “Where’s the best data?” And being on the other side of the fence now and being more of their peer, it’s really, really cool to flash back to those moments when I get to talk to them and then remember those times.
Mike:Yeah. And what’s interesting, and I can’t speak to any of those guys specifically, is that they all had ups and downs in their business, right?
John:Yeah.
Mike:On social media, it’s easy for us to assume that everything is always positive, but the truth is, as humans, and maybe it’s ego or whatever, we tend to share more of the good stuff than the bad stuff. And we all have ups and downs. We all have bad months. We all have bad weeks. We all have bad days. We all have bad business relationships. We lose money on deals. Like things happen. And the land of real estate investing is not the land of milk and honey. We wouldn’t be doing it . . . I mean, I wouldn’t have been doing this for 11 years if it hadn’t been a net huge positive in my life. But it doesn’t mean that every day is positive, right?
John:Well, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. And I think that was a big thing when I realized from making that jump is that there’s so many more turning pieces and elements and things as a business owner that you don’t see, because all I saw was, in my mind, a million bucks on the phone. That’s where I imagined. I’m going to get on the phone. I’m going to make a million bucks. Well, it doesn’t exactly work that way. And I learned it and that’s the hard part. And that’s where a lot of the gut checking and the learning comes in. In the network you have built and the help and building that knowledge comes into play.
Mike:Yeah. Yeah. So let’s talk about it. So you got started in real estate investing. Kind of take it from you left ReboGateway and formed a partnership.
John:Yep. Formed a partnership. Just not all partnerships work out. I owe a lot of gratitude to him for a lot of tremendous experiences I had and learning I’ve gained. Now we recently started a new company, and we’re still doing cold calling. And I think the biggest thing that I’m grateful for is, I mean, you really know what you’re capable of when your back is against the wall, and that’s huge. And that’s where the whole mindset shifts come into play is that, if you take things lying down in a sense, you’re going to get rolled over. So you got to step up your game. You got to have that mindset that if you have the drive to do it, you can do it. You know what I mean?
And that’s what I was struggling with a little bit in the fact that I had this big team around me before doing a lot of the work for me. And I’m blessed that two of those guys are now my partners, but it’s stepping back in the ranks and doing that grind again. But it’s so appreciative. I appreciate every day now more. That’s for sure.
Mike:Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about kind of just overcoming kind of obstacles. I think there’s a lot of people that are in partnerships that break up. I mean, there’s a lot of people that are in marriages that break up, right?
John:Yeah.
Mike:And truthfully, those are the types of things that nobody wants those things to happen, but those are the things that ultimately build character and help you pivot. And those obstacles usually make us stronger as humans, as business people. I mean, sometimes they knock people out of the game too, right?
John:Yeah.
Mike:But let’s just talk about things that happen in life, why it’s important to kind of learn from those things and how to make it a positive instead of a negative.
John:Yeah. It’s truly how you look at it. And I mean, I could have looked at it that, you know, I failed. I tried and I failed. I went out and I gave it my all and it didn’t work. So I’m going to tuck my tail and I’m going to run back. But no, I took it as a learning experience. I took what I learned and said, “Okay, now I know how and what I want to do. Now I can do it the right way.”
So if you look at things that happened in your life as, “Why me,” you know, I like to look at it as sometimes, “Why not me?” If that make sense. Why not me? Why not me? I can overcome this. And I posted the other day that for any person who truly knows his why can overcome any obstacle. And I think that’s how you look at things is dictated by your why as well. And if you don’t have a strong why, then you’re going to wallow in self-pity and why did it happen to me versus, hey, look, brush yourself off and get up and go.
Mike:Yeah, it’s so easy for people to become a victim these days, right? I mean, it’s a sad thing that’s happening really across America of people just being less self-sufficient and anything that goes wrong, pointing a finger at somebody other than themselves.
But what are some of the lessons? I mean, what are some of the lessons you think other people that might be listening to this, if they face some challenges, how they can go reflect back on that? Because I know some other challenges that you’ve had in your life, that you’ve shared before, but without getting too personal here, but just how people can turn that around. And if they look back and they say . . . you know, there’s a lot of people that hang on to yesteryear, right? They’re like, “This happened to me,” and they just kind of decide that, “My best years are behind me.” You know what I mean? There’s people that do that, and it’s crazy because as entrepreneurs that are like in Investor Fuel or people that we know that have achieved at a high level, they have failed way more than they’ve won, but they just keep pivoting up, right? Like, “I’m going to step back, but then I’m going to come back.”
John:Right.
Mike:And a lot of people continue that downtrend, and they just kind of decide in their mind like it could never get back to being that good again or whatever, right? We’re going deep here, John.
John:Yeah. You went a little deep. Tell me the question again. I kind of forgot that . . .
Mike:I want people that are listening to this that have had something negative happen in their life to . . .
John:Let it go.
Mike:You’ve got to let it go, and you’ve got to say that was an opportunity to like not touch that hot stove again. Not like don’t ever be around a stove. It’s like just don’t touch it again.
John:Yeah. Well, and I love and I listen to a lot of Andy Frisella and MFCEO when I’m working out. It’s like, let it the fuck . . . let it the F go. You know what I mean? And that’s been the hardest part for me, right, is just to let things go. I’ve been one that’s always held onto it. So as me as a struggle, that’s been my biggest part.
But there’s a reason why the rearview mirror is this big and the front rear is this big. You have to look, you have to look back. And if you don’t look back and you don’t learn and take from what happened to you and apply what you’ve learned to do better, then that whole thing is a waste, and then you might as well walk, right? If you take that and you apply it and let it go, but only remember those facts, then you’re going to be able to move on and focus on going forward. You can’t change yesterday.
Mike:You can’t.
John:I can’t change what happened a month ago. If I sit here all day and say, “What happened?” [inaudible 00:11:51] I’m like, “Oh, man.” It’s not going to put food on my table. It’s not going to pay my baby’s daycare. It’s not going to pay my rent. So I have to put my bootstraps on and go. That’s what people need to understand is that you’re going to get knocked down. Everybody you see with Lamborghinis and Porsches and suits and everything has been beat the hell up. What they did is they took what they learned and they grew from it and got better.
Mike:There’s no doubt.
John:That’s all I can hope to do.
Mike:Yeah. Yeah. You talked a little bit about your why, and we talk about this a lot. Why are you doing this? It was interesting, because I do believe that it’s important to know what it is. I’ve struggled personally with sometimes knowing why it is, because I found myself doing what a lot of people do and they say, ‘Well, I’m doing this for my family,” right? And it’s like, well, everything you do should be for your family. But sometimes people say they’re doing things for their family and they just say that because it’s an easy . . .
John:Tongue-in-cheek, because it’s easy.
Mike:There are people that say, “I’m doing it for my family,” and then their family never sees them because they’re working hard for their family. I say, well, your family would probably like to see you a little more too. And so there’s always that line there of why do we do what we do. And it was interesting because Sean Whalen said something. He spoke at our event back in February, and he said something about that he struggled with like sometimes you get down on not knowing what your why is, and sometimes you just like, I don’t know what it is, but I just know that I want more and I’m willing to kind of work hard and understand the fact that I’ll figure this out eventually. But I don’t want to just come up with a placeholder necessarily and say I’m doing this for my family. It’s not that you shouldn’t be, or it’s not that that can’t be your why, but sometimes there’s more to it than that.
But you talked about that a little bit. Like maybe share your thoughts on the power of your why.
John:My why. You’re going to get me all emotional here, because this is truly my why. In my first marriage, I was in, up until five years ago, a raging alcoholic. I have no problem saying that. I’m in full recovery. I haven’t had a drink in five years. God saved us on April 1st, but that all led to me losing my daughters. And not losing them in a sense where I never really saw them, but I got divorced. You know, I had to let them . . . because I wasn’t supporting them because of things going on, they moved to Washington, and so I had no relationship with them.
With my new wife, we tried and tried and tried forever to have a child, and we couldn’t and we just gave up. And then God gives her. Gives Ellie. So the reason I wanted to get into this business, it’s not for the money. I mean, yeah, I want money of course. I want to do a lot of stuff. But for me, it’s that ability to be able to take that little girl to school and pick her up every day, because those are the things, those little things I missed. The other day her grandfather, my stepdad got her a little baseball tee-ball thing. And I got pissed because I didn’t get a chance to try and do that with my other daughters, and this is one more chance. Baby factory is closed. One more chance.
It’s those little things that that’s my why. That’s why I do it. Because if I don’t and if I have to go back and spend the time like I did before, busting my hump for somebody else and not have the time to spend with her, it’s not worth it.
A couple of different [events 00:15:24]. I went to a [inaudible 00:15:25] this morning. They did the thing where you write down all your numbers and you have that many days left, you know? And that just blew my mind. I’m like, okay, and how many days of that do I really have with her? Because once she becomes an adult. So that’s where I really truly feel that every moment counts. You know what I mean? And people keep asking like . . . well, she’s at my mom’s for the week right now, and I let her go because my mom needs to see her as much time. And that’s what it’s about. It’s about them, not me.
Mike:That’s awesome. I think I told you to bring your box of tissues. You didn’t get the text message?
John:No, I did man and I apologize man.
Mike:Thanks for sharing that man. You know I love you.
John:Yeah. I know you do, brother. So I appreciate it.
Mike:At the end of the day, I think one of the things that we’ve talked about and one of the things I know is, in this process of you starting over again, you’ve been able to lean on the network that you’ve built up and the relationships you’ve built up. And we talk all the time about how important relationships are, right? And we all know that. And some of us, like I am militant about relationships, like so much that we’re tracking like when’s the last time I talked to somebody. Not with everybody but with people that I want to get to know better or people that want to know more and it’s because I know the power of those relationships, and you never know where they might take you. But I know that you valued that a lot in the process of kind of recreating yourself here. So talk a lot about the power of your network and those relationships and what that’s meant for you.
John:Yeah, man. I mean, Investor Fuel has been huge for me. And, you know, like I mentioned before, in the years of working with ReboGateway, I met a lot of people I’m in the circle with now, that I’m talking to now a lot. But especially when it comes to like Investor Fuel, some people I’ve met there, that’s been invaluable because starting over, especially, when there are things I don’t know, I have that person to turn to. Right off the bat, Jamie Wooley, we’re working with her and her team for us to cut our costs and expenses. They’re giving us phone numbers and stuff to call for them, and we’re teaming up. We’re 50/50 in. Mike Singletary, I worked with him.
So the people that you build your network with are people that can help you survive in the times when you are knocked down. You’re not ever alone. I’m never alone. I know I can call anybody from Investor Fuel right now, whether I really met them or not, and be able to have that support that I need. And then, like I said, I was texting Jamie this morning about how I’m getting beat up in the mindset thing and someone who understands and has been there and can talk to you to it. So it’s not what you know, it’s who you know.
Mike:Yeah. And I want to add to that though, John. So inside of Investor Fuel, you have been a huge giver. You show up early, always willing to help.
John:I love it.
Mike:You are always willing to help people. And it goes both ways, right? It’s like the reason that your network is available for you now, and I’m sure you have an awesome network even outside of Investor Fuel, but inside of Investor Fuel the reason that people are willing to give now is you’ve been giving for a long time, right? So I think in terms of kind of maybe share some lessons with people that are listening out there, whether you’re part of Investor Fuel or not, is the importance of building your network but not just like . . . I have a couple of gimmicks here and having a couple of business cards of somebody that you have in a drawer somewhere. It’s like having that relationship to where they’re willing to help because they know you would do the same thing
John:Exactly. And if you haven’t read “The Go-Giver,” read “The Go-Giver.” I mean, you give more than you take all the time. I have people, and it still blows my mind. I have people that reach out and want to spend some time with me on the phone talking about cold calling and what I’ve done with cold calling. And I feel like, you know, like should you be talking to me or like John Martinez or Brent Daniels or someone else. I mean, “Why me?” But it’s empowering for me. And I open up, and every podcast or thing I’ve done, I always put my cell phone number on there and people ask if I’m nuts. Well, no, I don’t care, because I’m going to help. If people didn’t give to me what I’ve gotten up until this point, I wouldn’t be where I’m at. So if I don’t give it back, then what I’ve done is for waste.
Mike:Yeah. Yeah. And the truth is, is I think most of us get to a point, and I’ve shared my story a number of times. I wasn’t always as open. Like the first couple of years I started in real estate investing, I was really like I don’t want to tell anybody anything.
John:The mindset.
Mike:And some of it was a mindset issue. Some of it was where I had just come from. I had lost a couple of jobs, and I was like, “Hey, man, I got to make this work.” And then when I started to open up and share and people here with me and we’re doing deals together. And next thing I know, it’s like, man, this is not only better for your business, not only better like socially and psychologically. It’s just the business really isn’t that fun if you’re in a hole somewhere and you don’t get to talk to anybody.
John:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you’re on an island, it’s not fun. I mean, who do you share your wins with? You know what I mean? And me and my team or my two guys, my partners have talked about it. About me, can I do some work from home too? But that influence of being together, it’s the same kind of thing with Investor Fuel. If you have a support team and you can see the wins coming, that boosts you up to want to win even more. That’s what I love about you guys is that I’m the dumbest person in the room.
Not really, but I want to make myself the dumbest person in the room. I want to hang around the RJs and the Brandon Barnes and Mike and Stinson and Kevin Lee about, you know, Airbnbs and stuff. And Mike Lima about, you know, sober living homes and stuff. It’s like those things I wouldn’t have had an opportunity to do without a network that I built for you guys.
Mike:So John, it hasn’t been that long that you kind of got started in real estate investing. Maybe we can talk a bit about tips. Like you had a background, you had a call center background, so you were able to adapt and pull some of that in. And there’s a lot of people that I know that don’t really know how to apply their background because it seems nontraditional.
I mean, to be honest, very few people that are successful in real estate investing started that way. They found their way there, right, through they were in a shitty corporate job that they left or whatever it might be. Something and they found their way there.
But I think there’s always lessons learned. Like there’s lessons that I pulled from corporate America, which was like around putting systems and processes and people in place. And your call center background has added a lot of value. So talk to people that are listening right now that are doing some deals and maybe kind of stuck and they don’t really know how to use their network or their background because it seems nontraditional.
John:For me, I mean one thing that I have to really revert back to, that I didn’t do off the get-go when I started before, is the KPIs and watching numbers and stuff. I mean if someone’s brand new, that’s huge. Watch your numbers. I’m now paying attention to that more, and I’m seeing where some of the leaks maybe are when we’re calling, you know, lists that have bad contact rates.
As far as utilizing your network, I mean if you are going to expand into other marketing channels, go find the person who’s killing it doing it, right? If you guys want to talk to me about cold calling, call me. I’m not killing it again yet. I mean I will be. If you want to talk to whoever’s smashing direct mail in the southeast, I mean really utilize the resources that you have to grow your business. If you want to scale up, use the resources.
You know, you talk to Gary Harper about training and test this test and talk to John Martinez about sales training and use the tools you have to grow, because you’re not here to do it alone. You ain’t the first one to do it. You’re not going to do it perfectly and go learn from people that have failed and learn what they did the right way. That’s what I would say this.
Me starting over again, that’s what I’m trying to do. I’m still having that issue of letting go of, “I can do this business. I could start [inaudible 00:23:23]. I don’t need nobody.” But I do. I do need somebody. I do need people. And my partners are great. I mean, they’re really there. But when I’m talking about adding other systems and doing things the right way that we didn’t do before, this is going to be a great resource. All my networks.
Mike:Yeah. Because you have a lot of experience with cold calling, maybe you could share what’s working. I know you’ve tested a bunch of stuff too. You’ve tested VAs. You’ve tested in-house people. So maybe you could talk a little bit about kind of what’s working now in cold calling.
John:Well, right now, we’re actually all three back on the phone. That’s another hard part I had adjust to is I’m actually doing the dialer time on the phone. But when it comes to cold calling, I mean, if you’re starting out and you’re on a budget, you actually have to do it yourself, you know? And it’s really a function of, and I think this is where people lose in cold calling is they try to go out and make it like it’s a sale or make it like it’s a process.
In my opinion, and I might get beat up for it, just talk to people. It was Brent Daniels, like TTP. Talk to like it’s your friend. “Hey, what’s happening Jim?” “Oh yeah, [inaudible 00:24:30]. This is John.” If you have that persona and that mentality that, okay, so I just made another friend, cool, it’s going to be a lot easier than saying, “Oh, damn, I didn’t make another deal. I didn’t get another lead.” I think that’s the biggest thing in cold calling that people fail at is the ability not to make a friend.
And then ask the tough questions and know the right questions to ask. It’s hard cold calling. It’s not easy. I mean, if anybody’s going to decide to start, you know, there’s a pump for John Martinez. If you don’t watch John Martinez, then you’re not going to do very well, because there are some nuances that even I, as a 20-year person on the phone, picked up from John. One little paragraph changed the responses, the leads, the quality. Just one little thing. And that goes back to using the network. But just make a friend on the phone. Don’t be afraid. People get afraid.
Mike:We teach a lot. I do a lot of coaching for helping new people get started, and we always say like, “You are trying to buy a house, but just go out and just try to help somebody. Just talk to them and have a good conversation.” At the end of the day, you’re never going to convince somebody to sell you their house that didn’t want to sell you their house in the first place, right?
John:Well, it’s 5% of the population is what we’re looking for. If they want to talk, they’ll talk. Back to your question, when it comes to in-house or cold calling or VAs, if I had the option of unlimited budget, in-house all day long. I’ve always done in-house. My fan of it is the fact that people progress a lot faster, because you’re around people and you’re hearing people and you’re getting more of the influence going. More cost effective, VAs obviously. I’m still coin flipped about the both, because I mean, realistically if someone wants to sell their home, I think they’re truly going to talk to you whether or not you have a slight accent or don’t. And there’s a lot of VA companies that are using people that have great accents. I mean, no accent at all really I should say, and they sound great. And you can get people that are expats overseas. It’s just what you want to pay. You know what I mean?
Mike:Right. And I think what you like and what I know people that like a lot is the energy in the room of a room full of people that are calling. They end up getting pumped up. They start competing with one another. That guy just got a deal. I just see how excited he is. I want to be excited like that. And when you’re working with VAs, you don’t see that, and you don’t hear that. They’re probably home based so they’re not even around each other, and just it’s really the energy of the call center.
John:With VAs, you have to be a little bit more hands on. You’ve got to do more call audits and stuff. And like you said, you’re right. You can make more fun out of the monotonous thing of cold calling when you’ve got in the office versus a VA in the Philippines with eight other people in the room or wherever.
Mike:Yeah. Yeah. Well, John, you’ve talked, you mentioned Investor Fuel a number of times here. So not trying to turn this whole thing into like an infomercial for Investor Fuel necessarily, but maybe you could just share a testimonial of Investor Fuel and, you know, when you joined, what you thought you were getting into and what the experience has actually been like for you.
John:Well, for me, when I joined Investor Fuel, I mean I’ve been to a number of other different things. I mean, I think not too far before I went to Investor Fuel, I went to [inaudible 00:27:50], and that was all with ReboGateway stuff. But I thought when I’m going in to Investor Fuel, that it’s going to be the same thing. I got to try to fit in. I got to act like I’m a big baller and doing hundreds of deals a year. We were doing good, but I wasn’t at level.
With Investor Fuel, I didn’t feel that way. You know what I mean? I walked in and I just felt I was welcomed and greeted. You and Stinson just reaching out right off the bat, I mean it became a family for me, to where, like I said, me starting over, I’m able to reach out to people that before Investor Fuel I might have saw them on Facebook. You know, I might have maybe attended an event or two that they showed up at, but not where I can go in and immediately enter a JV relationship with someone given me a bunch of data and I call or say, “Hey man, I’m in a pinch. I don’t know Dallas. I need a quick ARV,” and someone will help me out. That’s the invaluable part is the network that will last forever, past anytime [inaudible 00:28:47].
You know what I mean? So if you want a family, I like Investor Fuel. If you want a suit type of show, go to some of these other people. That’s my testimony. I love it.
Mike:Yeah, you are wearing a tuxedo right now though.
John:I am wearing a tuxedo right now. Check it out. I’m also wearing camouflage shorts.
Mike:There you go.
John:I’m full redneck wedding. No offense to anybody, please.
Mike:Awesome, John. Well, hey, if folks wanted to get in touch with you or learn more about what you’ve got going on or wanted to reach out, where should they go?
John:You can either look me up on Facebook, John Harcar. Our business on Facebook or our new company is Dealer’s Choice Home Buyers. So if you wanted to check that out on Facebook as well, or once again, call me. Cell phone number is 702-335-8317.
Mike:Awesome, John. Hey, thanks. Thanks for spending some time with us today.
John:All right, Mike. Thank you, man.
Mike:Always good to see you, my friend. And everybody that listened today, thanks for joining us.
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