Syndication Secrets: How to Build Wealth in Real Estate

John Harcar (00:01.038)
Hey guys, welcome back to the show. I’m your host, John Harcar, and I’m here today with Loren Wernette. And what we’re going to talk about is being willing to fail. I know it’s something a lot of people really struggle with. Guys, remember here at Investor Fuel, we help real estate investors, service providers, and really all real estate entrepreneurs, 2 to 5X your business. And we do that by providing tools and resources to help you build that business you want to build, which in turn helps you lead that life you want to live. So Lauren,

Welcome to our show. I’m excited to talk about this because I mean, think this is the big, this is why people don’t get to where they need to be. and, but before we get into all that, get into the weeds of all that, tell us about you. Tell us about how you got into real estate, you know, kind of what got you to this point in your life.

Loren @investwithLoren (00:32.699)
Thanks for having me.

Loren @investwithLoren (00:51.207)
Sure. So Loren Wernette live in Raleigh, North Carolina. I was like everybody in 2020. I was working a W-2 job, ladder climber, and COVID hit and changed my whole world. Didn’t want to have to ask for four weeks vacation every week or year. Wanted to create a life that I wanted to live with my family, wanted to show my kids that you didn’t have to live working a cubicle your whole life. And thought that real estate was really the best vehicle to do that.

So started down the path of trying to find some rental properties. Ended up buying my first rental property in November of 2021. And then from there, it just kind of blew up. I became pretty good at raising capital, raised about $10 million over the course of a couple of years and purchased 65 properties, 85 doors, did about 20 flips. And at one point had way too much going on on my plate. Had all of that, had the flips.

had a wholesale business and started a lending business as well as having four kids and a wife. And a W-2 still, right? So, you know, I fell in the mindset that a lot of people just keep building as many things as possible and see what works the best. And it just come to realize that that is not the right approach. And I didn’t realize that easily. I took a lot of pain, failed a lot of times along the way. But every time I failed, it kind of pushed me a little further down the path towards I wanted to go.

John Harcar (01:52.078)
And a W too, yeah.

Loren @investwithLoren (02:17.062)
And I am now running a lending business. We focus on second position loans, double closes, land acquisitions, and run a multimillion dollar fund that we started last year.

John Harcar (02:29.758)
Nice, okay, so you got a phone also. All cool. Well, let’s step back a little bit here. So you had your full-time job. What is that full-time job? What was your W-2? What were you doing?

Loren @investwithLoren (02:37.872)
So was working for a large chemical company as a digital project manager. So I was responsible for the implementation and rollout of Salesforce Service Cloud and Commerce Cloud across across North America.

John Harcar (02:48.974)
Good old Salesforce. So how did the real estate thing just kind of pop into your head? Did something happen? you see, watch someone on YouTube that, I mean, what kind of pushed you?

Loren @investwithLoren (03:02.886)
Yeah, funny story, actually was always opposed to real estate. My dad had a rental growing up and it was nothing but problems. But I had a friend who, he still is in real estate, he had bought a couple rental properties and then 2020 he’s like, you should get some rentals. You know, I’m making $400 a month in cashflow. And I really fell into the cashflow trap. You’re gonna buy all these rentals, you’re gonna get all this cashflow, you’re gonna buy a boat, you buy a house, you live off the cashflow. You know, if I hadn’t had that lie, I probably wouldn’t have been so eager to jump in.

John Harcar (03:08.748)
Loren @investwithLoren (03:31.706)
but it was a good starting place and I’ve since realized that it’s the appreciation you’re looking for. Cashflow is just there to kind of pay the bills. And by bills, I mean the business bills, not your personal bills.

John Harcar (03:38.39)
Yeah.

John Harcar (03:42.238)
Yeah, you don’t get rich on $400 a month. mean, and it’s funny because that’s what a lot of people hear, right? And that’s why you say fell into that trap. hear, make it four or five, $800,000 a month. But how much of those struggles are you doing? What kind of issues are you dealing with? Tennis, toilets, and termites aren’t fun to deal with. So I would rather have a different investment than push it into that. So you bought some rentals. You bought your own personal rental first, right? Or you bought your…

was yours and then you started building from there.

Loren @investwithLoren (04:12.262)
Yeah, my first rental was a Triplex that I bought via seller finance through a guy that I met. And I still, that’s the only rental I still own today. Like I said, it cash flows, 500 bucks a month or so right now. But I don’t live off that, that just goes into account so that when HVAC goes out or roof goes out or wherever, there’s cash to cover it, right? But all the other ones I bought with a partner, using a lot of private money or other people’s money.

John Harcar (04:18.828)
Sweet.

John Harcar (04:31.714)
Mm. Perfect.

Loren @investwithLoren (04:40.371)
And as of last year, I’ve sold that half, my half of that business to my business partner so I could focus solely on my lending business.

John Harcar (04:48.494)
Okay, when you were going out and finding private money, how were you doing that? How were you finding those guys that would lend to you?

Loren @investwithLoren (04:54.692)
So the best place I always tell people to go when they’re finding new money is go to the local meetups. There are a lot of real estate investors that kind of fall into two camps. There are people that want to invest in real estate, but once they realize how much work it is involved in managing a rental property, it’s very easy to convince them, give me your money. I will do the work for you and you get the returns. Or there’s the other group of people which are already managing rental properties themselves.

John Harcar (05:19.32)
I know.

Loren @investwithLoren (05:24.09)
but they have self-directed IRAs that you can leverage because they can’t use those funds for themselves, for their own projects, and so they look for partners that they don’t have existing business relationships with to invest into real estate because they know and like that asset.

John Harcar (05:32.898)
Right.

John Harcar (05:38.282)
Awesome, okay. So you got these gentlemen and that’s a great place to meet those lenders. That’s been recommended before. So you got all these rentals and then was it just too much for you or how did the whole lending part come into play?

Loren @investwithLoren (05:52.113)
So in 2023, the North Carolina State Real Estate Commission put a letter out saying that they considered all of assignment of contracts for wholesalers were doing as commissions and you had to have a license. And so I saw a need for more a double close operator within the state. And so we started it then and it started going all right, but I still had the rentals. It basically got to 2024 when I had five businesses going and I realized that I wasn’t getting

John Harcar (06:11.82)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (06:19.234)
Mmm.

Loren @investwithLoren (06:21.284)
get where I wanted to go trying to spread my time too thin, right? And so I started cutting things. I knew I didn’t want to be a flipper long-term, stop doing that, close the wholesaling business down because it was like one of the newest things and it was just easy to shut that down. And when I looked at my life in 10 years, I didn’t see myself wanting to chase tenants and toilets and deal with all the struggles of a real rental portfolio. I saw a much better opportunity, both scalable,

John Harcar (06:25.228)
Sure. Sure.

John Harcar (06:34.911)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (06:45.271)
Right.

Loren @investwithLoren (06:48.991)
and lifestyle design in the lending space. And so.

John Harcar (06:51.992)
Well, I mean, go ahead, sorry.

Loren @investwithLoren (06:55.076)
Yeah, and so I just said if I don’t want to do it in 10 years, then I don’t want to do it now. Let’s just exit now. I can give my partner a pretty good deal. Just let him have that and focus on where I want to be, which will give me better returns long.

John Harcar (07:09.39)
Perfect. Okay, very cool. So now you’re doing the lending and I know you mentioned that you’re raising capital, you got a fund. Actually, let me step back a little bit. Tell folks what the whole double close is, right? Because some of the people on here might not know what a double close is. Tell us how you help with that.

Loren @investwithLoren (07:25.062)
Yeah, so. Yeah, so when you’re a wholesaler, sometimes you do what’s called a double close, which essentially you need to buy the property from the seller and then on that same day sell the property to the end buyer. So in a typical assignment of contract, you’re basically just doing one closing and you’re capturing a fee. Well, there are instances where you want to protect your profit. You know visibility of your profit. You know there’s other instances where double closes need where you have to do two closings. The problem or the catch with that is.

John Harcar (07:52.587)
Uh-huh.

Loren @investwithLoren (07:54.865)
for that very first closing, you have to bring all the capital to the table. So let’s say you’re buying the property for $70,000 and there’s closing costs. Now you’ve got to bring $72,000 to the table. You’re going to get it back later that day, but you still got to have that money in your account. And so what I do is basically come and say, I will fund this closing for you, this AB side. And then the end buyer brings their capital to the table later that day. I’m going to get my money back plus a fee. So we charge about 1%.

John Harcar (08:09.698)
Right.

Loren @investwithLoren (08:24.422)
for use of our capital. Usually it happens within a day. Like we have one going right now. The funds went out about 20 minutes ago. We’ll probably get the funds back before five o’clock this afternoon. But it helps wholesalers. They don’t have to focus on trying to find the money. They don’t have to worry about, is this gonna close on time? We always close on time. And it just helps them out with that. They can focus their time on finding more deals.

John Harcar (08:48.834)
Got it. And if they already have a buyer, why can’t they just have the buyer wire the money in and close it simultaneously?

Loren @investwithLoren (08:56.048)
So the law requires that the money that’s coming from the end buyer can’t be used to close the AB transaction.

John Harcar (09:03.316)
Is that a North Carolina law or is that a everywhere law?

Loren @investwithLoren (09:07.408)
So I think there are a few states that will allow it, but there’s been a federal mandate that says that it’s highly discouraged.

John Harcar (09:16.462)
Okay. Okay. And then, so in an instance where, you know, I don’t want the seller saying I make a hundred grand, whatever it might be, I don’t know, whatever, that’s where the double closer come into play. I’d come in, I’d say, hey, look, I need 150 grand to buy this property. You lend it to me for a thing, and then you close it, and then once the buyer wires money in, that goes to you. So are you in essence putting a lien, kind of putting a lien on it or something like that, or how are you?

Loren @investwithLoren (09:39.662)
Yep, so at

Loren @investwithLoren (09:45.681)
So we don’t put a lien on it in most cases. So most of time these are single day transactions. Our money only ever goes to the closing attorney or the title company, right? And so how we secure that is we get all the documents done and we won’t wire our funds in until the end buyers funds are in escrow at the closing agent’s office. So once those are there, then everything’s signed, the money’s there, there’s nothing gonna stop it from closing, then we’ll wire our funds in.

John Harcar (09:50.935)
Right.

John Harcar (09:54.638)
Okay, got it.

John Harcar (10:05.774)
Mmm, okay, got it.

Loren @investwithLoren (10:12.614)
The first time we wire money to a new account, it takes about three to four hours. The second, third time, if you repeat customers, you’re like less than an hour from the time we click go to when the money shows up in their account. So a lot of times these closings happen within two hours of each other because the money’s already there and we’re just kind of the last piece of it.

John Harcar (10:29.706)
Nice, okay, perfect. So I mean, that’s a good service that I know a lot of investors might need, especially with the changing laws, right? So now let’s talk about the raising capital and the fund that you have. If someone wanted to go raise, start raising capital, right? What are some things that you struggled with when you started raising capital that they might be able to learn from?

Loren @investwithLoren (10:37.734)
Mm-hmm.

Loren @investwithLoren (10:53.51)
Yeah, I think the biggest struggle with raising capital when you’re just getting started is getting the, I’m going to say cart before the horse and that you go out and try to find people that will lend you money and then you go and find the deal. A good deal will always draw in good money. And so the first thing you should do if you want to raise capital is go out and find a really, really good deal. Not a deal is mediocre, but a really good deal that you can take to someone and say, Hey, this is

John Harcar (11:07.062)
Hmm.

Loren @investwithLoren (11:23.118)
great deal. This is all the numbers and you have to make it extremely easy for them, right? Show them exactly what’s going on. Run all the numbers for them. Lay it out very clear. Show them what the risks are to it. And then if it is as good a deal as you think it is, know, the chance of you being able to get money from them are very high. Now you can start kind of pre-pre-processing that by talking to people and you know, have you ever thought about investing in real estate? Are you interested in that and kind of create a little bit of a list?

John Harcar (11:27.617)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (11:35.534)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (11:42.765)
Bye.

Loren @investwithLoren (11:52.551)
But the first few are the hardest because you’re an unknown entity. People don’t have it. You don’t have much of reputation that there, but as you get more into it and you start raising some capital and even better, you start returning capital to investors like a they’re going to be happy, so they’re going to want to reinvest and be they’re going to tell all their friends about how happy they are. And that’s how your network grows. You know, in the course of a couple years.

John Harcar (11:52.686)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (12:15.266)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Loren @investwithLoren (12:19.142)
We went from very few to about 40 investors that we’re all, you know, we could send our deals to and we would get things funded very quickly because we were known to be very fair. We ran our numbers very conservatively and we always gave our investors back every penny plus some when we got them their money back. And that’s the number one thing you treat investor money better than you treat your own money always.

John Harcar (12:41.886)
Yeah, and that’s a great nugget for everybody that’s listening is you know Once you start building that experience now, do you recommend folks? keep like a notebook or like yeah Something that just kind of keeps track like hey, this was my deal so they can show their deals like their past deals to To new lenders right like hey, look, this is the stuff I did to the return he got etc. Etc Do you recommend keeping that type of tractor like notebook everything?

Loren @investwithLoren (13:07.238)
100 % I probably have one around here someplace that I used to carry around to meetups and it was one of those like plastic binders with a clear front and it would show like first page was like all the deals that I’d done and like what the returns had been and then like pictures before and after pictures of what the projects looked like because you know these investors all generally know real estate they understand the general area what they don’t know is

John Harcar (13:15.138)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

John Harcar (13:26.179)
Yeah.

Loren @investwithLoren (13:33.667)
Are you capable of doing what you say you did? Right? And so being able to show the product before and after and show the performance or maybe not the performance, but the actual data of like, this is what I bought it for. This is what I sold it for. This was my profit margin. and sometimes being blunt and like, this one didn’t go very well, right? And showing why, like shows that you’re being open, honest, and transparent versus everything always being golden, rosy and sunshine. That’s not the case, right?

John Harcar (13:36.696)
Proof of concept, yeah.

John Harcar (13:54.754)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Loren @investwithLoren (14:03.012)
Sometimes things go sideways and owning up to that is important.

John Harcar (14:06.638)
Well, and they’re realists like they’ve been in the thing and they’ve been in the game, right? I mean, or they probably have some, you know, know, simulation into it and they’ve seen it. They know that, you know, there is no perfection, right? Everything is going to be a struggle or always going to be something that comes up, especially in real estate. So with this capital or with this, what do you think is the best or the first step that someone needs to do to raise capital?

Besides get experienced, I mean.

Loren @investwithLoren (14:30.854)
So. Yeah, I mean raising capital is like everything else in real estate. It’s tough when you don’t have experience. So you know if you’re just getting started, I’d say two things he either go find an amazing deal, you know, and then try to find a couple people in a meetup that you can raise capital from or honestly the first step in most things in real estate is start networking. Hey, I’m Lauren. I do whatever fix and flips. I do rentals.

John Harcar (14:53.262)
Mm-hmm.

Loren @investwithLoren (14:57.734)
I’m looking for people that might be interested in partnering with them. You know, I don’t have a deal right now, but are you interested in looking at deals that I send to you and sharing things as you get them if they’re good enough? But you gotta start networking and start building some reputation because if the first time someone ever hears from you is when you’re looking for money, like that’s not that’s not a good luck. You need to be showing up to meetings. You need to. They need to be able to put a face to the name. They need to know that you’re actively doing things.

John Harcar (15:17.179)
huh.

Loren @investwithLoren (15:26.214)
And the other thing is be prepared that on the first couple deals, you’re probably going to have to give away more than you really want to be very generous at the beginning because the generosity helps them kind of get over the nerves of working with someone new and it creates a good strong foundation that then you can use long term to better both you and their bottom line.

John Harcar (15:33.795)
Bye.

John Harcar (15:49.486)
Yeah, and I mean, of all things, that’s the relationship business, right? You got to give a little bit to earn that trust, to build that rapport, that confidence that you’re going to come through. So let’s talk a little bit about our topic today, being willing to fail.

Why do you think that so many people, because we’ve seen it, you know, it’s analysis paralysis type of thing, that they sit there, maybe just, they’re afraid to take that action step. Why are people afraid to fail?

Loren @investwithLoren (16:20.39)
Psychologically loss is more detrimental to the human psyche than winning is. If you had somebody that was going to win $2 or lose $1, you would be more inclined to, you know, take the, you would, would, hey, you’d feel worse taking the L than the W. And that just extrapolates since you get bigger and bigger chunks of money. I think part of it is just if I lose, do I then associate or identify as some sort of loser, right?

Or do I take a reputational hit for having taken an L when in reality everyone fails and in fact the people that fail the absolute most are the people that you would look at and see as the biggest winners, right? Because every time you fail, you’re either doing one or two things. You’re either learning how to not do that again or you’re going to give up. And so you have to fail or you cannot take the next step.

John Harcar (17:02.766)
huh.

Loren @investwithLoren (17:16.102)
to then try something else and fail something some other different way. And you just continually take those failure steps, learning all along the way until you get to the point where, well, you never get to the point where you stop failing. You just maybe get to the point where you thought you wanted to be and then realize there’s still a thousand more steps to go because you should never really fully where you want to be. That’s just the human nature.

John Harcar (17:22.595)
huh.

John Harcar (17:37.71)
Yeah, do you think that obviously with social media and all the glitz and glam of what these projects look like when they’re done and all that and then when someone starts and it you think that you know how our society looks at that you think that’s a big effect of mindset?

Loren @investwithLoren (17:52.839)
I think 100%. I think, you know, if all you’re looking at on social media is, this person’s project went great. They won for it. You made $40,000. How many projects did they just break even on? Right. They’re not showing those things. And then occasionally you will see on social media, someone posts about their failures and they just get ripped apart in the comments. you should have done this and you should have done that. Well, you don’t think those people don’t know that, that they should have done those things, but you know, good for them for putting out that not every deal is a, is a home run.

John Harcar (18:13.43)
Right. Right.

Loren @investwithLoren (18:21.454)
In fact, the vast majority of real estate deals, whether they be rentals, they be flips, they be loans, they’re solid base hits. And that’s what you’re trying to build a career and an empire on base hits, not home runs. The home runs are nice when they come, but you wanna hit the base hits on a regular basis. And the better your batting average is, the more profitable your business is gonna be.

John Harcar (18:28.162)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (18:33.548)
Yeah.

John Harcar (18:41.388)
Yeah, if I had a 10-at-bass, I hit six, seven base hits and you hit two home runs, I think the team will keep me longer because I’m producing runs. Maybe a little bit more frequency than you. So, okay, what are some of the techniques or tools or books or things you’ve used in your past just to kind of keep your mindset focused and going? Because we know all this stuff, you know, with the world bombarding us, how do you keep it straight?

Loren @investwithLoren (18:49.766)
100%.

Loren @investwithLoren (19:06.532)
Yeah, so I’m a strong believer in in fitness foundation. So if my body is not working correctly, then I don’t believe my mind can work correctly. So I work out every single day have for well over a year now started at December of 2023 and have worked out every day since then. I read every single morning last year. I read 34 books or something. I’m on track to read 40 books this year and that’s non nonfiction books. So

John Harcar (19:23.214)
Nice.

John Harcar (19:35.95)
Mm-hmm.

Loren @investwithLoren (19:36.143)
Right now I’m reading a digital marketing book, some books that have really impacted me, you know, over the time or been extreme ownership by Jocko obvious. Obviously the first one was rich dad poor dad, but there’s just a lot of really good books like that that not just talk. Yeah, that one’s a great one. If you’re getting into business that there’s one down here I have its buy back your time by Dan Martell. You know there’s.

John Harcar (19:43.587)
huh. Choco, yeah. Great book.

John Harcar (19:53.602)
Who Not How is a good one.

John Harcar (20:02.602)
Mm-hmm. There’s tons. Yeah.

Loren @investwithLoren (20:04.89)
just so much information out there. And then the other thing that I really do is, let’s say I’ve got a project and I’m working on like digital marketing or structuring something. I will listen to podcasts that are around those topics that I’m struggling with. Not so much for the actual content in the podcast, but it sets my brain in a different frequency. And so now I’m thinking about that more, whether I’m listening to the podcast or not. And I tend to come up with ideas a lot quicker than let’s say I’m

John Harcar (20:27.866)
huh.

Loren @investwithLoren (20:32.676)
you know, worried about digital marketing and then I’m watching or listening to some podcasts on mindset, you know, or struggling, you failure or something. You can adjust the frequency of your brain by what you put into it.

John Harcar (20:41.581)
Right.

John Harcar (20:46.924)
Well, and like you said with the working out, with the reading, you know, it’s like working out every day is what strengthens and maintains your body. Reading every day is what strengthens and maintains. You know, it’s like my wife makes fun of me because I sometimes I’ll play the little crosswords on my phone. But what you don’t understand is like you’re thinking and it’s as using your brain as opposed to just sitting and watching some mindless stuff.

And I love it, right? Mindset’s been a big part of my life and it’s a big part of, think, a lot of people need to focus on to go past those barriers. So if someone wants to get into real estate, lending, whatever it might be, I mean, what advice would you give them with today’s market, with today, you know, how things are going? You know, what first steps would you give them or, you know, anything to look out for?

Loren @investwithLoren (21:29.51)
Yeah, mean, so first steps to me are always figure out approximately what you want to do and then start networking. So everything always looks really, really rosy. I’m going to make so much money in rentals. I’m going to make so much money in flips, right? Start networking with people. And as you build that knowledge base, you’ll start identifying some of the tipping points or the tripping points that you start will run into. You want to identify all of them, but eventually you will have to make a decision on which way you’re going to go.

John Harcar (21:51.94)
huh.

Loren @investwithLoren (21:58.833)
Too many people get stuck in this analysis paralysis where I’m not sure if I want to do rentals or flips or I want to start a business or I want to buy businesses. Like any of those options, you can make millions and millions of dollars, but you have to take the step of taking action and doing one and fail for it. And it might not be the right one. I started out buying rentals, you know, looking back, you know, if, if would I have started out buying rentals? Maybe, maybe not. I learned a ton of stuff doing.

John Harcar (22:12.003)
Yep.

John Harcar (22:16.194)
Fail forward.

Loren @investwithLoren (22:28.186)
doing the rentals right that has helped me in my business now and I wouldn’t be in the lending business that I have if I hadn’t started there. But it wasn’t a fun experience for a lot of it. There was a lot of pain and heartache during that process, but I at least took the step if I had never bought my first rental. I wouldn’t have a lending business. I wouldn’t have been able to leave my W2. You know I wouldn’t you know be you know have my own business and I wouldn’t be where I am mentally either. So you’ve got to take a step and.

John Harcar (22:37.858)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (22:48.493)
Bye.

Loren @investwithLoren (22:56.314)
Assuming that your first few steps may be failures and that’s okay. It just means that you’re gonna learn and adjust and move forward. But you know, take a step fail, but then don’t quit keep going figure out what you want to do adjust and keep going adjust and keep going because you know at the end of the day we only have one life and if you are complacent and Happy where you are then you’re never gonna be where you know never gonna be where you actually want to get You know too many people get very very comfortable in their nine to five. Well, I I’ll do it next year

John Harcar (23:06.028)
Nope. Yep.

Loren @investwithLoren (23:24.742)
Or when the kids stuff isn’t so busy, when my kids are a little older, and then there’ll be some reason then. And eventually they’re 95 years old looking back and wishing they had changed something. Well, we can’t go backwards.

John Harcar (23:28.66)
Mm-hmm.

John Harcar (23:38.158)
Yeah, well, and what is fail? First attempt at learning, right? You gotta be, you gotta trip. Nobody who’s made millions and millions of dollars has never failed more than probably 50 to 100 times on something, right? So put the foot forward and go.

I love it, man. We talked about some good stuff here, Lauren. I hope everybody out here that’s listening got some good nuggets and they wrote them down. If folks want to get in touch with you, maybe they’re in need of a double close or they just kind of want to talk with you a little bit more about lending, real estate, whatever, how do they get in touch with you?

Loren @investwithLoren (24:11.674)
Sure, so I’m pretty active on Instagram, so you can find me at investwithloren, L-O-R-E-N, on there. Our website for the DoubleClose is reidoubleclose.com. Obviously you can reach out to me there. But those would be the two best ways, and if you’re in the Raleigh area, I usually end up at a TREA meeting on a regular basis. So happy to connect in person as well.

John Harcar (24:32.684)
Okay.

Awesome. And we’ll put all that contact information in the show notes, guys, so you can click on it. You can get in touch with him. you know, Lauren, thank you again for coming on. I really appreciate all that you shared with our audience. And guys, I hope you guys enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Look forward to seeing on the next one. Cheers.