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Show Summary
In this episode of the Real Estate Pros podcast, host Micah Johnson speaks with Mikkel Thorup, an expert in offshore investing and expat life. Mikkel shares his unique journey of living in multiple countries, along with his experience helping Americans and Canadians navigate international investments. He discusses the importance of cultural perspective when investing abroad and clarifies common misconceptions surrounding offshore strategies.
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Investor Fuel Show Transcript:
Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (00:00)
So when we help them through this process, when we help them to the other side of the bridge, then it’s just like, wow, it’s just a massive difference in our life. And that transformation, that moment when they actually get it and all the stress and anxiety and worry all disappears, it is…Micah Johnson (00:01)
Right.Right.
Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (00:18)
So rewarding. I swear, I’m obsessed with watching this. Like, I don’t have to work anymore, to be completely frank. I’m independently wealthy at this point. I don’t have to work another day in my life. I do it because of that moment. Because that is just rad. Like, it is just so cool to see people, you know, get it in that light bulb moment. Man. The best.Micah Johnson (02:12)
Hello everyone, welcome to the Real Estate Pros podcast. I’m your host, Micah Johnson. And today I’m speaking with Mikkel who makes some serious moves in the offshore investing space for the last 10 years now. Mikkel, welcome in man, glad to have you.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (02:24)
Thanks very much, Micah. I’m looking forward to it. Should be a good conversation and hopefully inspire and educate your audience. I think it’s going to be a good one.Micah Johnson (02:31)
Me too, man, me too. Our pre-recording conversation, I really enjoyed it. We’re talking about a subject that I haven’t spoken about many times and I love learning. And you’ve now been doing this specifically for 10 years and involved in some really cool projects out there. So I’m excited to dig in. So for those who aren’t familiar with you yet, tell us a little more about yourself and what your main focus is right now.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (02:53)
Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Mikkel Thorup I’m from Southwestern Ontario. I left Canada in 2000. So this is my 26th year of traveling and living overseas. I’ve lived in nine different countries, visited about 120 and circumnavigated the globe over 400 times. I specialize in bringing Americans and Canadians offshore. So we deal with the taxes, the immigration, and then the investment side of things. So we help people purchase a second home.Micah Johnson (03:12)
Wow.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (03:22)
maybe a couple of investment properties, we put together a portfolio of real estate. Our main focus is really the tangible assets. I don’t do any of the hot stock tips or anything like that. It’s really focused on condos, single family homes, ⁓ raw land, agriculture, timber, things like this, things that you can touch and smell and feel and taste and are actually in there in the physical world, know, call me a little bit old fashioned, but this is what makes sense in my brain.But we’re having massive success and it’s a lot of fun. I enjoy this work a lot still after so many years.
Micah Johnson (03:55)
Love that man. That’s one the things I’ve really enjoyed about real estate. When you do it the way you want to, it pays your emotional paycheck and your financial paycheck. And it does both really well. I love the umbrella it happens under. Okay. So that’s pretty unique story, my friend. Take us back. One, what led you to want to become an expat and travel the way you have. And then two, to where you are today to creating this business that youMikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (04:03)
of your family.Yeah, I mean my story is a little bit different. I left school at a very young age. I actually dropped out of school when I was 12. I stopped going to school at 12 and officially dropped out at 15 and started traveling internationally for bit of fun and adventure. as soon as I got overseas and I started meeting all these cool people around the world, I was like, wow, these are my peeps, you know, and just started to dedicate my life to exploring the planet.
Micah Johnson (04:43)
Yeah.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (04:46)
You know, you hear all these stories, okay, and get it out of your system while you’re young because one day you’re going to have to, you know, A by C, you know, settle down or get married or white picket fence, et cetera, et cetera. And you can’t do that when you’re overseas. Well, I can tell you that’s not true. I’m happily married man for more than 10 years now. I got four gorgeous kids. My kids speak four languages. They’ve traveled internationally. We’re very international family.You know, my wife is from mainland China. I met her in Germany. We got married in Africa. My first child was born in the UAE. My second in Brazil. My third in Chile. My fourth in Mexico. So all the kids have different passports. We travel around the world together looking at real estate and sourcing new deals for our clients. And it’s just been, you know, not what everybody says it is. I mean, like you can do anything you want as long as you’re not hurting people, as long as you’re not harming people.
I mean, go out there and make it happen and nothing’s ever held me back and I’m pretty stoked to be alive and to be doing these things and sharing it with my kids and my wife, so good.
Micah Johnson (06:39)
That’s incredible, man. Congratulations. Not many people pull it off in that way. And you’re out there doing it, a testament to really, you can just do stuff. It’s one of my favorite quotes right there. Like, the only reason you don’t do things is some silly belief you have in your own mind about it. And I go through it myself. How often do you tell yourself, that’s not for me, that’s not this. It’s so easy to say no. But the reality is, if you’re open to it, you create whatever life you want. I mean, that’s the benefit of beingalive today, like we’re alive in a unique time where it’s never been easier to get around the globe. It’s never been more friendly in the history of the world as whatever you hear, it’s like more and more open than it’s ever been in the majority of it. one international travel, in my opinion, this ain’t really about real estate. does something special to you mentally. It really gets you off your quote unquote island. It shows you that, man, at the same time your life is taking place, it is taking place for 8 billion other people.
It’s also happening and it’s just as quote unquote normal as yours. It’s just a different kind of normal. It’s their version of life and what they’re doing and going through. And there was an old Harvard debate captain who’d start every debate this way saying, if we understand that we all have far more in common than we do different than our arguments change. And it is, it’s just once it hits you that way that, Whoa, hold on, hold on. We’re all really just the same in different places.
doing a little bit different things and we can go enjoy that. We can go participate in that. It’s not this big boogie world that’s out there trying to get you, right? If something’s trying to get you, you usually messed up, right? It’s not just coming after you.
Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (08:20)
For sure. think perspective is one of the most interesting concepts to kind of ponder. Trying to understand something from someone else’s side of things. And you you’ll look around at all these cultural things and be like, that group of people, they’re rude, or this people is bad, or their beliefs are wrong. And it’s actually like, you go over and you meet them and you talk to them and they’re like, wow, they want the exact same thing. They want a roof over their head. They want a full belly. They want to love and be loved. They want to protect their kids. Like, it’s all the same, you know?I think it’s super interesting to understand where people come from, why they do certain things, why their food is a certain way, why their culture, their language, what influenced these types of things. I think it’s just the most fascinating thing in the world to try to understand other people and their culture and where they come from.
Micah Johnson (08:50)
It’s all the same.Couldn’t agree more, man. It’s something I have written here in my office. Perspective is greater than. In all ways, seek it. If you have it, you can make the most educated choices you’ve ever made, because it’s everything. that ability, a human’s unique ability to imagine the world from someone else’s position and go see it, we’re the only ones we know of that can do that so far. And it is a game changer. It just makes you realize one,
The world’s full of way more opportunity than you could ever imagine. And getting out there and seeing it just unlocks all those doors, which leads us to where you’re at right now. So you’re running a company, you’re currently in Panama, correct? And you’re literally helping others do the same thing that you’ve learned to do. You’re opening the world to them in a way that others weren’t doing before. So can you take us into that a little more about your company and what it does on a day-to-day basis?
Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (09:51)
You’re only going have to it once.Yeah, absolutely. So I’m not a lawyer. I’m not an accountant. I don’t play one on television. I’m a consultant. So I advise people. prepare information for them. We do proprietary research and I give my opinion on things and everybody makes up their own decision on what they’re going to do. But I present opportunities and deals. The main focus is working alongside the lawyers. Like I said, I’m not a lawyer myself, but I have lawyers who work for me, for my company.
And we deal with the tax, the immigration and the investment side of things. So client wants to move overseas or get a little bit more international attention. Well, what does that look like? What laws do we need to follow? How are we going to structure the deals? know, what kind of, ⁓ are we going to use an LLC, an IBC, an SA, a trust, a foundation? What does that look like? What are the reporting requirements back home? You know, what are the reporting requirements of the country that you’re going to be investing in?
What are the taxes there? What are the tax requirements back to your home country or the country that we’re structuring the things in, right? There’s a lot of complexity there. But to go back to the part on perspective, a lot of it is trying to look at the local culture in a new country and try to figure out how do these people think? What are they going to want to rent for or buy? How does this work? Why do they do this certain bureaucratic process in this country? What are they trying to get at?
trying to understand all of those pieces. So in a lot of my work, I do give perspective on this. And ⁓ I don’t know many people out there who are taking such an international approach to it and are having success like we are having, know, just deal after deal, project after project, just success, success, success. We’re very conservative in all of the projects that we do and in all of the work that we do. If I get two numbers, I’m always looking at the worst one.
Micah Johnson (12:16)
Right?Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (12:31)
every single time, you know. Here in Latin America, we have a saying that, you know, whatever time frame you get, you can expect to double it. So I try to like mentally prepare the client for the cultural difference because, you know, Latin America is very family focused, which is amazing, which I agree with. But at the same time, that means that if your brother has a flat tire, you’re not going to work that day. You’re dropping everything to go and help him. Or if mom needs help with the groceries or something.You’re going to stop what you’re doing. You might not necessarily think about that you were supposed to paint a house one day or something, right? You’re just going to drop everything and it’s family first. So kind of preparing the clients, understanding the cultural differences, and then all of the technical things as I mentioned before. It’s a lot of work, but we got a 30 some odd person team who helps me with these things. ⁓ And it’s just like I said before.
Just so much fun. I just think it’s just like the coolest thing I’ve planned ever.
Micah Johnson (13:31)
Yeah. Well, and you line up with something that I really try to encourage on this show. You are living it. Like your secret weapon is you you’re living it. You live it every day. You’re already going to be doing this for yourself. Your ability to do it for other people is from the perspective of would I literally buy this deal myself or not? And that ability to know what they’re going to go through. That is a game changer in real estate. Like you want to talk about perspective when you understand what your clientMikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (13:31)
Yes.Correct.
Micah Johnson (13:59)
feels like when they sign the paperwork, feels like when they’re reading through the information. You know how just the whole gamut, everything you go through when you’re doing it and now adding in the fact that’s taking place in an area you’re not familiar with, like you’re talking about, like we really don’t know anything about anybody else. If you watch TV, here’s what you know. You know about other people’s governments and we all know that nobody’s government represents the people of what they really actually are.That’s what happens when you go and visit there as you realize, ⁓ everything you told me on TV was just a bunch of bullshit. They’re saying that’s not real. That’s not what’s really happening. Like you said, 99 % of the population just wants to be loved, have their family, have a roof over their head. The same thing that we all want. The unique part is being there to understand it on the ground. Because like you just said, that example you gave, you want to drive an American investor nuts that.
what you’ve just described for, because again, I mean, and to our detriment, we don’t show up for people in that way. I’m with you. feel like the way we view family does need to shift some and it is shifting, especially I just turned 40. The way I think about my family is not the way the people before me in my family thought about it. Most of my friends that own businesses are all the same way where it’s really making a comeback in the sense of
Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (15:11)
Okay.Micah Johnson (15:21)
It’s just not about money. We figured out how to make a lot of money. There’s nothing wrong with that. But now what? What do you do with it? Who is the person that’s handling the money? How does your life actually look? you, are you getting closer to what you want? Or are you just doing more? Cause that’s not helpful, right? We actually are all trying to get closer to stuff, which I think is just going to have a greatMikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (15:31)
Thank you.Micah Johnson (16:23)
effect on society as a whole. There’s the lady HD moment, but again, dive diving into that, what it’s really like on the ground without someone like you.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (16:30)
IMicah Johnson (16:32)
Most folks wouldn’t even know where to start. mean, wheredo you go first? Like what’s the first thing you do? And it’s, I’m thinking about it myself. If I was wanting to enter invest internationally today and I did not know you, what would I do? Who would I talk to? How do you, mean, besides talking to my robot and we can’t trust all our robots on this stuff, obviously, but it’s, it’s that you’re in such a niche.
What have for your clients that are finding success? What’s that thing that’s really putting wind in their sails and helping them grow?
Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (17:02)
I think part of the big thing is that a lot of people, especially new investors, are completely priced out back home. I think that the prices are absolutely ridiculous. So you end up getting some older property. You probably have to take a mortgage and you end up piling up all this debt. Overseas, it’s not like that. you we were talking quickly off camera about Paraguay. It’s a country that I love so much. All right. I’ve been there a bunch of times.I’ve actually had a chance to sit down and talk with the president of the country on a couple of occasions. Actually, a quick side story. This is not real estate, but maybe we’ll give you a little bit of context. So I sat down with the president twice. So once he was coming here to Panama, Panama joined the Mercosur, which is basically like a little Latin American EU kind of ⁓ organization. Panama was joining, so I ⁓ was invited to ⁓ come because of private business owners, small luncheon.
Micah Johnson (17:40)
Yeah, please.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (18:00)
And then about a month or so later, I was invited for, so that was an official meeting. The next one was an unofficial meeting. So I was, I don’t know, about half an hour and it was just him and I were sitting there and chit chatting. And I’m giving him feedback on going through the immigration process in Paraguay and this worked and that didn’t work. you know, this is what American and Canadian expats are looking for. This is what foreign direct investors in our space are looking for, blah, blah, blah. And he sat there very, very quietly. Okay.And then suddenly he reaches forwards and he touches me on the shoulder and he says, Mikkel, I know what you’re talking about. You’re talking about freedom. Don’t worry. We’ve got lots of that here. And I was like, boom, this guy is amazing. This is Santiago Pena, the president of Paraguay, the president of a sovereign nation. And I was like, this guy is unbelievable. This country is fantastic. And I just started doubling down and just.
Micah Johnson (18:48)
He gets it.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (18:57)
powering in like every extra dollar I could possibly get my hands on into this country. Because you got this guy who’s like 46, 47 years old. He comes from an economics background. He’s very freedom minded. The country has very little regulations. And we’re building apartments, brand new apartments, condo units, you one bedroom starting at 60,000 US, two bedrooms, good size at like 80,000, 90,000 US.And they’re pre-constructions, so you had two years to pay for them. So it’s usually like 10 % down, 10 % six months after that. then, you know, like usually the six months is when they’re breaking ground. And then it’s like quarterly payments of 5 % or something like that until delivery. And so, and all these doctors, lawyers, accountants, financial planners, small business owners, you know, people who build stuff or highly paid professionals, and they have nice fat salaries.
Micah Johnson (19:43)
Wow.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (19:55)
And they’re able to buy apartments and then they just put it on from their salary or something like that. You don’t need to spend a million dollars to get a unit. Some of the guys will come in and they will spend a million dollars, but they’re not getting a unit. They’re getting a floor or two floors of an apartment. You have multiple doors and they’re all professionally managed. And we help people through the whole process and through the notary and going through the legal system and what are the rights. The taxes are very low there and it’s justMicah Johnson (20:00)
Mm-hmm.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (20:25)
I just don’t know why more people are not doing this. Like I just, I look at the prices back home. I’m from just outside of Toronto. I look at the prices at Toronto. I’m like, that’s insane. I’ll have a client who will sell their condo in Toronto. Like say a doctor, okay? 55 year old doctor will sell their condo in Toronto, take out the three, $4 million at that cost, move overseas by a new primary residence for a half a million dollars, which is nicer than the one in Toronto anyways.Micah Johnson (20:36)
Right.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (20:52)
and then put together a whole portfolio in two or three different countries, collect the rent, and go surfing, or go scuba diving, or go traveling, or barbecue, or drink nice red wine from Mendoza or something. And it’s like, there’s just so many other options out there. So I don’t know. I mean, I’m going on a bit of a rant here, but I mean, I’m just super pumped about these things.Micah Johnson (20:53)
Right.Right.
No, you’re good, You’re good. Because well, but we’re bound to run out of time. So what’s one thing that you can think of that you’ve helped people overcome to dive into this kind of market? Like not many people are doing it, but is there something you’ve noticed that if they just understood it differently, it could open that door for them?
Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (21:34)
Okay, I would say, this is not the only thing, but this is one thing, the first thing that comes to my mind, is people expect the tax system to be as complicated overseas as it is back home. People spend like a month getting ready for their taxes and they need to hire so many other professionals and it’s just like this huge strain and so much work goes into it. Often when we’re overseas, it’s actually, once you kind of get the basics of it, it’s very easy.Like Paraguay has a 10-10-10 flat tax, okay? So a 10 % income tax, a 10 % corporate tax, and a 10 % VAT, a value added tax or sales tax. That’s it. Not a progressive tax rate. There’s not like 9 million different exceptions. It’s like 10-10-10. So if you can remember that, from the Paraguayan side, it’s very, very easy. If you’re an American, then we’ve got some tax complications that we need to deal with, and there’s filing for the FinCEN and the Treasury and…
IRS and all of that kind of stuff. But just from the offshore piece of it, it’s very, very easy. Or if you look at Panama, where I live, they don’t tax foreign sourced income whatsoever. You can, they have no capital gains tax here, so you can sell your Bitcoin here, you can sell your gold or silver here that’s had a massive run up. There’s no capital gains tax. Okay? You can work for a foreign company, you can work, you know, Amazon, FBA, drop shipping, you can have international real estate, you can be a consultant.
You can be telemedicine. You can do all these things. And if you’re not selling to Panamanians, there’s no tax here. You can sell to Europeans. You can sell anywhere else in the world. There’s like so much, the systems are way more friendly. Not everywhere in the world, but you know, in what we call the expat space or the offshore space. They’re just so much more friendly. And so you can focus more on building the business, building your investments, spending time with the kids.
or like I said, drinking nice red wine and eating some good red meat and you know, and that’s it. And it’s just like, and then you get on with your life. know, the worst, the last one I will say and then I will move on. The worst ones are the ones who come down here to Latin America and then continue to like worry about all of the problems back home or continue to doom scroll or continue to like double check and triple check and quadruple check even though they’ve gotten the answer from three lawyers already.
because they just can’t believe how simple and how favorable it is when you move offshore. And it’s like, it’s like they’ve been lied to their whole life and they just can’t come to terms with that.
So when we help them through this process, when we help them to the other side of the bridge, then it’s just like, wow, it’s just a massive difference in our life. And that transformation, that moment when they actually get it and all the stress and anxiety and worry all disappears, it is…
Micah Johnson (24:12)
Right.Right.
Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (24:29)
So rewarding. I swear, I’m obsessed with watching this. Like, I don’t have to work anymore, to be completely frank. I’m independently wealthy at this point. I don’t have to work another day in my life. I do it because of that moment. Because that is just rad. Like, it is just so cool to see people, you know, get it in that light bulb moment. Man. The best.Micah Johnson (24:51)
Love that, man. I love that. Cause it is, it’s amazing what you can do in business when you just actually care. Right? That’s like the secret sauce. makes you, whether you have to work or don’t work, if you’re going to, that ability to actually care is just what sets you apart. It’s that secret sauce. All right, Mikkel, you’re living as an expat for 25 years. You’ve created your own investments. You’ve created the independent wealth. Now you have a company that is helping others do the exact same thing.Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (24:57)
100%.Micah Johnson (25:21)
So for those that are listening and watching that want to find out more about you, understand what’s going on. What is the best way for them to connect?Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (25:28)
Absolutely. Join the newsletter at expatmoney.com. We put out fresh content every day. Amazing stuff. expatmoney.com.Micah Johnson (25:35)
Excellent. So if you’re listening or watching in, check the show notes. We’ll have all the Mikkel links there for you. Like I say on this show all the time, we don’t just bring on random people. The goal is to put professionals in front of you who live out what they’re talking about, who do it each day, that if that’s what you want to do, go speak with them. I say it over and over. Education is step one. Don’t let what you don’t know freak you out. Go talk to people who do it. It’s possible.So if you’re interested in becoming an expat, investing offshore, reach out to Mikkel and his team, see what’s really possible for you out there. Go live your dream, don’t waste time. Mikkel thanks again, man, for being here. Appreciate your time, your story, your perspective. I’ve really enjoyed it. I don’t get to talk to folks like you every day. So I love hearing these stories, man, and what people are doing. So thanks again for being with us. And thanks everybody out there for being along with us. Absolutely, man. And thanks.
Mikkel Thorup – ExpatMoney.com (26:27)
Pleasures on mine.Micah Johnson (26:32)
Everybody out there for being along with us. If you got value out of today’s episode, please like this episode, share it with someone else you think you get value out of it. And as always, if you don’t subscribe yet, please do follow along with us here. We’ve got more conversations coming up with operators, just like Mikkel out there building a real business in the industry. Thanks for being with us today. We’ll see you on the next episode.
