Why Relationships Are the Best Investment in Real Estate | Mokena Makeka

Mokena Makeka (00:00)
Well, the first thing that I’d say, and it’s funny that you mentioned this, because I actually gave a talk about this just two weeks ago, called Relational Capital. And I said we need to think of relationships as investments, not so much as transactions. So in other words, if we’re trying to build up our networks, the first thing is to not be so transactional that unless you’re getting something immediately that you forget that person. And this is very difficult, particularly in places where it’s go, go, go, go, go. I think of the sort of New York culture of click click, what are you doing? You know, which I also fully understand. Because some of the best opportunities that have come to me have come from people who remembered a conversation I had with them five years ago.

Issa Hanna (02:10)
Welcome back to another episode of the Real Estate Pros Show. I’m your host, Issa Hanna, and today I have Mokena Makeka with me from Flow Capital, but not just from FLOW. He’s co-founded many, many things, a very knowledgeable, personable man. Mokena, welcome to the show.

Mokena Makeka (02:26)
Pleasure to be here, Issa, and also a pleasure to be in company with the listeners of the show. Thank you so much for having me.

Issa Hanna (02:33)

Thank you so much for coming on. It’s a true honor. It’s not every day I get somebody in so many different markets doing so much good in the world onto the show. It’s usually the, you know, the real estate investor or the loan guy or whatever. So I’m super excited to ask you some questions and get into and spotlight who you are and what you do. But for our viewers at home, can you kind of give them a rundown of FLOW and what your day-to-days kind of look like and what your mission is right now?

Mokena Makeka (03:01)
Thank you. So FLOW stands for the Future of Living for One World. And what it essentially means is that as society moves forward and we all want to live well and have shared prosperity, there is a delta between consumption and our impact on the planet. And the reality is that if everybody consumes to their utmost, the planet is going to suffer. What we don’t want to do is to tell people that their dreams and aspirations for prosperity should be set aside for the sake of the planet. So it’s really about how do we imagine a new abundance, how do we imagine ways that we can find prosperity but at the same time regenerate the planet. We certainly don’t want to see the millions and billions of people who are yet to be born between now and 2050 making the same mistakes of the past. But we also don’t want them to say that they don’t deserve a good life, great public space, good food and job opportunities. So it’s a different way of working.

What I do as FLOW really sits really with two sorts of hats then. One is the thought space. So a lot of thought leadership, talking to cities, talking to architects, talking to urbanists, talking to financiers, and getting them to reimagine what investment could look like in a way that you still make your profits, but you still make a better world.

And then the other part of it is actually putting my money where my mouth is and working on creating software, in this case, FLOW OS, which really helps to bridge the gap between the people who have capital and projects and say this is how you can actually fund these projects. It makes total sense for the planet, it makes total sense for the pocketbook, it makes total sense for beneficiaries.

And what I do is essentially a form of advocacy, either on the thought side or on the capital side. By background, I’m an architect and an urbanist, but I’ve also done a lot of work in policy formulation, advising countries, advising multinational organizations on how to proceed. And I really see myself as attempting to be a force for good through my training, which is essentially the built environment.

Issa Hanna (05:18)
I love that. A true mission. And then you’re making it basically easy. You’re connecting the two parties, the funding and the project, under one roof and showing, hey, this could be profitable, but the main goal—and as a kid that grew up in the nineties and, you know, we had the whole education campaign on recycling and, you know, and saving the earth, right?—and, you know, we grew up like that. We are always constantly thinking of that. We’re thinking of the future. We’re thinking that this can’t continue. So I love that you’re actually, like you said, putting your money where your mouth is, connecting huge investors, getting real projects done. Unbelievable. I mean, truly remarkable. And like I said, not many times on my show do I have somebody who comes on that can give us this type of perspective. So I’m getting very excited.

I want to rewind though all the way back maybe to the nineties. When did you know this was what you wanted to do? How did you take this avenue in?

Mokena Makeka (07:04)
Well, I’ll actually take it back to the late 80s. And really the experience was somewhat transformative. So I grew up in New York. My father was an ambassador to the United States. We were in DC for a while and then ambassador to the UN. And growing up in New Rochelle, which is a beautiful, leafy suburb, you know, he was then recalled back to Lesotho in Africa and flying into Africa and seeing this particular landscape where there were no trees. And I was just a bit surprised. I’m like, why are there no trees? And he basically said, you know, the poverty levels are so high that people burned down trees to keep warm and to cook. So I had never made a connection as a child that trees could be used for cooking. I, you know, I grew up in New York, a tree’s a tree. So I think by the time the nineties started to roll in, I started to be much more aware of inequality.

And much more aware of urban inequality and having been in one of the wealthiest cities in the world and then moving to one of the most impoverished countries in the world as a 12-year-old, you can’t help but draw the connections. You can’t help but say, why is the world this way? So I became very acutely aware that, and I wouldn’t accept the idea that some people are meant to be rich and some people are meant to be poor. I didn’t accept that. I also didn’t accept the idea that, you know, if you’re rich, it’s because you’re smart, and if you’re poor, it’s because you’re not intelligent. Some of the most intelligent people I’ve met have had no education, but this is more about circumstance.

So for me, I realize that I’m very fortunate to have the education that I have. So I don’t take it for granted. And so it’s a gift that I need to give back. That’s maybe an important thing. And the second one is that I could have been born in a 12-person household in the middle of a shanty town and I would have a completely different life. So I’m very appreciative of life. And for those people who are less fortunate, I think it’s up to us who are more fortunate to work and support them.

So yeah, I would say I’m very much aware of my environment. I’ve always watched people, I’ve always watched society, I’ve always tried to ask why are things the way that they are and then as an architect, you realize very quickly that most things are designed, that the world around us is not a fait accompli. Somebody thought about it, somebody conceptualized it, and somebody made it. And if that’s the case, that means that technically we can make anything we want. So we can make equality, these are choices, you know, the world is not set in stone. And this is maybe—I hope that’s a good answer to your question—that’s for me, the idea that we can choose to do things better has always been in the back of my mind.

Issa Hanna (10:35)
I love that. Truly inspiring. I mean, since you were a kid, late 80s, son of an ambassador, so it runs in your blood, right? Doing good, wanting the better good, the greater good for your common man runs in the blood. You use your education, you use everything that you were provided to not just scale, make more money, forget about the people. You’ve made it your life’s goal to achieve this.

And you’ve, like I said, and like you said, your money is where your mouth is. This is your life’s work. So truly inspiring, truly remarkable. And as a son of an immigrant, seeing that inequality as an American going back can definitely, definitely make you think like that. So I can definitely relate to that. I want to talk a little bit about another thing that you’ve got going.

I want you to tell the viewers about SEA. You mentioned you were an architect. So can you tell a little bit more about SEA?

Mokena Makeka (11:28)
So again another impulse that was driven by a sense of injustice. So you could imagine studying architecture in the nineties in South Africa. And remember apartheid only ended in 1994. So I was part of the first class. Remember our professor said to us, “We have never had so many blacks until now and you are part of our experiment to see if this is going to work.” Right? This is the first thing you tell an 18-year-old kid, right? So it’s like, wow, exactly, right? And we were 12 blacks in a class of 63. And I did well as an architect, so as a student. So I don’t want to make that the issue. I did pretty well, but I did well despite the institution, if that makes sense. So encountering a lot of passive-aggressive racism, lots of ideas that African architecture doesn’t exist, lots of ideas that black people haven’t contributed culturally to history. You know, there’s lots of tropes that show up in the architectural discipline. And I railed against that, absolutely.

So I and a couple of friends decided to found the first independent school of architecture because I wanted to give an alternative to kids like me who were being told that they had no contribution to history and to make a space where I could say, “No, you have something to contribute.” So we’re now seven years old. It’s amazing. We’re the first independent school. Our students are doing very well. We’re competing against other institutions that are in some instances a hundred years old and so on and funded by the state. And it’s one of the things I’m most proud of, which is again, going back to, you know, putting your money where your mouth is.

I don’t want any students to ever experience the prejudice that I experienced and the hurdles that I experienced. So I said I’m going to make a school where—and that’s why we call it the School for Explorative Architecture—because the idea is that you can come here to explore, you can be free, you can find out who you are, and that is our ethos. And I’m very proud of what we’re creating there. And accredited, by the way. So we’re not just saying we’re a school of architecture and then we give our certificates ourselves. We are a properly accredited institution, comparable to any other undergrad institution in the world.

Issa Hanna (13:51)
Amazing. So you’re giving these kids a fair shot, a fair shake, and you’re giving them that diploma that means exactly what all the other ones mean. You’ve taken the power and you’ve given it back to them. And you know, that’s all people need. That’s all these architects, you guys are creative people. You can’t be clouded with all this extra stuff when you need to focus on building or drawing the next great thing. So man, you’re giving your students a safe space, a safe space to study. And you’re doing it from a place of understanding. Just truly inspiring, man. Unbelievable, unbelievable.

Let’s talk future now. If I look you up like I did earlier in five years, where am I going to see FLOW?

Mokena Makeka (14:32)
The pragmatic part of me will want to give you a high, middle, and a low road scenario, but I don’t think I’ll be that academically rigorous. The high road, honestly, if I had—so we have a program, I was just speaking to an investor about this, because there are so many cities in the world and so many cities in Africa, 54 countries you can imagine. And they’re like, “How many cities do you want to start with?” I said, modestly, I just want to do seven. And they’re like, “Are you thinking big or not?” I’m like, no, if you do seven African cities properly and you partner them with seven American cities, because I’m very much focused on how can my being here in the United States also support American communities, both in terms of their livelihoods, but also cultural exchange with the continent. That’s 14 cities. And if I can have measurable change and investment through FLOW into these 14 cities by the year 2030, which is my target, I believe that we can then make it 80 cities potentially by 2035. If I can do that, honestly, Issa, I can rest well and say that I hope I can go to the Pearl Gates and say, “I did my bit.”

You know, so my ambitions, funny enough, it’s not like I have a financial target or a—it’s really about can I have an impact on between 14 and 80 cities where I could say had it not been for me and my team, the following would not have happened. So I really want to make sure that that impact takes place. At a personal level, I would hope for happiness. I would hope that my daughters, who are sixteen and fifteen, would then be in their early twenties and finding joy and comfort. And I also wish that my mother would still be there to see these things. So I’m also, as I say this, I’m praying for her longevity. That’s the invitation that you described, or given to me rather. And yeah, for SEA, I would like to see students who I’ve taught to teach others. So we’re not yet at that point. At the moment, we’re having graduates coming into the workplace, they’re doing well, but I know that I will have really done well when my students are now teaching other people, then I’ll feel like the circle of life is now complete.

Issa Hanna (16:44)
Amazing. And you know what? I personally hope for everything you pray for and then for the greater good of the world. Let’s hope this ten-year vision, this 2035 vision comes through because it would definitely be a cleaner, better planet under that vision. So let’s all hope and pray for all that to come true. I know that you at the helm of things, you pushing it, I know you’re going to achieve the goals that you set out for. Just talking to you very shortly, I do know that you’re one of the most inspiring people I’ve brought on my show. Truly a good human being.

I kind of want to ask you now one thing for my real estate people, right? My professionals, the lawyers, everybody who’s in our space. Because it does complement your space: relationships, growing networks, building these relationships. It’s very important in life. You’re not able to do this on your own. You’re not able to run FLOW on your own. You’re not able to buy, fix, sell, rent a house on your own. So what advice would you have for my young guys on getting the ball rolling and establishing these business relationships?

Mokena Makeka (17:50)
Well, the first thing that I’d say, and it’s funny that you mentioned this, because I actually gave a talk about this just two weeks ago, called Relational Capital. And I said we need to think of relationships as investments, not so much as transactions. So in other words, if we’re trying to build up our networks, the first thing is to not be so transactional that unless you’re getting something immediately that you forget that person. And this is very difficult, particularly in places where it’s go, go, go, go, go. I think of the sort of New York culture of click click, what are you doing? You know, which I also fully understand. Because some of the best opportunities that have come to me have come from people who remembered a conversation I had with them five years ago.

Some of the things that I’ve given to people, I’ve been in a conversation with an investor and suddenly remembered this person is doing this thing three years ago. I call them up to say if they’re still doing it. So there’s something about waiting for the right moment.

And when you meet somebody, you don’t know if that person could be your investor five years from now. You don’t know if they could be your boss five years from now. You don’t know if you might need them five years or so. So what I would recommend to anybody is build relationships, be slow to judge, remain curious, and also accept that not everybody will see you in the way that you want to be seen, and don’t be offended by that.

Because everybody’s on their own journey. So for every two doors that have opened up to me, maybe one hasn’t even opened. And I haven’t been offended because sometimes that door is preventing me from being distracted from what I really need to do. And then sometimes that door opens up later. They say, “You know what, you said something amazing to us three years ago, but we weren’t ready. We’re super sorry, now we’re ready.” So yeah, I’d say avoid being cynical about adversity. Avoid being overly transactional about people. Let relationships grow and over time the compound effect is much, much better than being hyper-transactional in the moment. And you’ll find that allies will come out of nowhere when something goes wrong simply because you were not transactional with them three years ago.

And then when they’re able to give you something, now they come in with full force. So sometimes you might meet the right person. They can’t give you what you want then, but the important thing is you’ve met the right person.

Issa Hanna (20:12)
Yes. And I mean golden advice. That’s something that, you know, when younger guys ask me, when I ask my other seasoned people that come on here, they echo almost the same thing, not as eloquently as you were able to state it. I mean, for people at home, rewind this, listen to everything that was said, because that is golden advice. That is exactly how you grow your network and you walk with integrity, right? You do everything with integrity, you let people remember you for who you are, not what you can do for them or what they can do for you. So unbelievable, unbelievable advice. It’s just, like I said, very eloquently put, almost like an architect, right?

Mokena Makeka (20:55)
Thank you so much.

Issa Hanna (20:57)
No problem.

And now I want to kind of give you the floor. If people were interested in getting involved with FLOW, if they’re interested, if they’re a young architect and maybe they wanted to go to the school, where could they get ahold, where could they reach you guys at?

Mokena Makeka (21:11)
You know what I suggest? I think probably the best place is on my Substack. So it’s Mokena Makeka. You can find me quite—you know, and then you can subscribe if you want to subscribe, but definitely you can actually post there and meet with me. I’m also on LinkedIn, so pretty responsive there. Again, Mokena Makeka, my name, you can find me there pretty easily. I’m on Instagram, although Instagram is more of a vicarious place of distraction, not necessarily for business, but I am contactable there. And then there’s of course our website, so flowplanet.world. But I would err towards the Substack and LinkedIn. These are probably the more reliable places. You know, websites get out of date at times and sometimes it’s difficult to remember to go back to the inbox related to the website.

So yeah, so I would say Substack would be great. It’s very nascent for me, so it’s a very small followership, so people shouldn’t be dismayed by that. It’s only about three weeks old. But I’ve had some really amazing feedback and conversations, and one is able to actually write in some detail about the things that one cares about. I’d love to work with anybody who’s listening. Also, I am an architect, by the way, just to put it out there. And I’ve done lots of award-winning design at the level of stadiums and stations and housing and hotels and real estate. And so there is a sort of hands-on side to me, not just theory, that I would love to get involved with, particularly in the United States. I haven’t built in the United States, but I’ve built in Africa and designed in many other places, but I’d love to do something here in America.

Issa Hanna (22:47)
So to our investors at home, if your ears perked up, if this is somebody who you want to do business with, if Flow is a mission that you want to get involved with, get on that Substack, slide into Mokena’s DMs, so that, you know, he could put it together for you. Mokena, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a true honor, my brother, to host you.

Mokena Makeka (23:05)
The honor is mine. Thank you for doing the work that you do. I believe that connectors and translators are, you know, arguably God’s most precious people because you bring people together. So what you’re doing is actually very special as far as I’m concerned, and I’m grateful to be a part of it.

Issa Hanna (23:21)
Thank you, and I’m grateful that you were on the show. I’d like to invite you back on the show at a later date if you’d have us.

Mokena Makeka (23:27)
Pleasure. Absolutely.

Issa Hanna (23:29)
Sounds good, because I really enjoyed our conversation. And to our viewers at home, if you enjoyed my conversation and want to see more like it, make sure to hit like and subscribe. I talk to people every day that could bring us different knowledge on every aspect of the real estate industry and even life. Until next time, The Pros are out.