Leadership Over Trophies: Philip Ganz on Legacy, Service, and Real Estate Success

Philip Daniel Ganz (00:00)
He’s like, no, he’s like, you don’t get it. He’s like, it’s not about this trophy. He’s like, he’s like, it’s about helping humanity. He’s like, why would I stop helping out, you know, humanity and people if I can keep going and give back to the world? He’s like, this is, he’s like, you’re missing it with these trophies. He’s like, I’m working with the younger generation.

Micah Johnson (01:58)
Hello everyone. Welcome to the real estate pros podcast. I’m your host, Micah Johnson. And today I’m talking to Philip Ganz, who makes some serious moves in real estate investing for quite some time now. Philip, welcome in man. Glad to have you.

Philip Daniel Ganz (02:10)
Hey, such an honor

to be here. I’m just pumped, excited, let’s give back.

Micah Johnson (02:16)
Love it, man. I love your energy, man. I love it. We’ve had a fun pre-recording call and I’m excited for our talk today. We’re gonna dive in on a subject that we haven’t really just gone straight out like we’re fixing to. So let’s dig in on that, man. We’re gonna really pile drive some leadership stuff here. So for those who aren’t familiar with you yet, let’s start there. Tell us a little more about yourself and what your main focus is right now.

Philip Daniel Ganz (02:39)
Well, my name is, uh, Philip Ganz, the president of next wave mortgage. You know, I went from, you know, through my career or starting May 7th, 2001 as Telemarketer to took a long journey to the president of a mortgage company.

Micah Johnson (02:58)
Man, okay. What led you there? Tell us how it came about. And then let’s dig in on that. I want you to share that story with your father at the right time. That kind of ties a lot of this together of why you do what you do and the way you do it now.

Philip Daniel Ganz (03:15)
Yeah, you know what I would say to everyone is it’s been a journey and you know, I go from telemarketer. You know, the loan officer to branch manager. I think every step along the way has been a journey of trying to get better, try to improve, try to learn from others. ⁓ See what you like, see what you don’t like, follow the real leaders, right? See what leadership is. ⁓

And I would tell, you know, anyone, you know, people are always looking like, you know, when is it time to be a leader or what is it time to be a manager? When is it time to run your own company? And I can tell you when that time is. The time will be when you win a trophy that you either you don’t care about picking up that trophy or B, you know, helped get you there.

And you want to celebrate it with other people when it’s others before you, because that’s what it’s going to take to try to win that championship among that journey, you know?

Micah Johnson (04:23)
It’s so true, man. It’s so true. And this is where that story of your dad, it hits in a powerful way of that truth in reality and actually the impact all of us, every single one of you listening has had. It’s had on your life. If not you directly, it’s on your family. And this is, this is what I love about this story. So take us into it, man. Where did that leadership concept come from for you?

Philip Daniel Ganz (04:47)
Okay, so a lot. My dad’s been a really big influence on me, right? And he’s this really hardworking, brilliant guy, but he’s really humble and hardworking and I never realized, you know, his level of like success. No idea. Jim and I makes this easier now. So it’s, ⁓ you know, it makes it easier than ever before, but I’ll tell you that kind of like

You know, the story that in 19, and I learned about the story for everyone listening this year. So I didn’t even know the story. Gemini had to teach me this story. So this is all verifiable. Most of it is, and I’ll add in a little color of what I learned that wasn’t on Gemini because Gemini only knows what you put in. Right. So in 1986,

Micah Johnson (05:37)
Gotcha. Okay.

Right.

Philip Daniel Ganz (06:32)
My dad wrote a paper and he’s a cardiologist at this time at Brigham and Women’s Hospital as a cardiologist. And he wrote a paper about how nitric oxide affects the body, which changed the way cardiologists viewed the body. Right. It fundamentally changed cardiology in 1986 because of my dad’s paper. Right. It was a great paper.

And it was 1986 when the Red Sox lost the world series. If you were from Boston, that was in September. This paper was July 7th, 1986. Right. And that was the publication date and nothing just to let you know of my dad. He’s just always working on the next paper, the next thing. So I, so I wouldn’t even, even though I was probably like,

Micah Johnson (07:09)
you

Philip Daniel Ganz (07:29)
Eight or the time or little kid. I wouldn’t have known any different. This is always like the next play with this guy, right? But two years later, and not only was my dad a big publisher of papers, he was, you know, he’d always be editors of other papers, right? And in 1988, there was another paper that was based on a 1986 paper. Okay. It literally like the whole paper was like, might as well take

Control C and then do control V. It was like basically based on my whole dad’s paper, right? The whole thing is like cited. If you like went through it, it was basically, ⁓ like other ways that you, know, other like different thoughts ⁓ on the 86 paper. That’s just keeping it like simple, right? In fact, yeah, he was considered almost the fourth author, right?

Micah Johnson (08:05)
you okay.

Right. Gotcha. Got their reflections on what was already written.

Philip Daniel Ganz (08:28)
And that’s like really important. So my dad sees this paper randomly, randomly. My dad was, was one of the, ⁓ people that would vote to see if this paper would be published. Right. And so he’s an editor and the two other people that were voting said this thing stinks. There’s no way. And my dad voted yes. He’s like, why wouldn’t you vote? Yes, this is great. It’s so ahead of its time.

And they were like, you know, they’re like, well, we need more proof and we need more this and we need more that money to do some more studies. And that’s like, you guys are crazy. This is way ahead of its time. And, ⁓ so my dad, and he’s only done this once in his career. This is what he told me. Right. What I learned. He called up the head people of the paper. He’s like, I don’t care what the vote was. He’s like, you guys are nuts.

He’s like, this is the best paper ever. And he said, well, it is because they copied your 86 paper. Right? He’s like, I don’t care what they copied or what it was inspired by. I think that’s a good way to put it. Copies the wrong word. We’re to say strongly inspired by, okay. ⁓ control C control V. and what ends up happening is that this paper in 1988.

wins the Nobel prize. Now for people that don’t know when you win a Nobel prize, only three people can win it. And my dad’s considered the fourth person. So he didn’t do it. And what happened was is that, and no one even knew like any of this like even existed, but randomly my dad was at some meeting and he’s like, nothing to do. Like it’s like some town in Europe.

So randomly my dad asked my dad, he ever talk to these people again? But he was like, yeah. One guy was like, you know, like had, you know, was there at a meeting. We decided to just rent the car and like cruise around Vienna. And my dad told him like the whole story. And all of a sudden they like pulled over. My guy is like crying. Like he couldn’t believe it because winning the Nobel prize changed the way everyone viewed him in his life.

Micah Johnson (10:42)
Hahaha.

Philip Daniel Ganz (11:31)
Right. The Nobel prize. There’s less Nobel prizes than gold, like middle Olympics. Right. There’s like very few of them. Right. Like it’s. It completely changes like everything. Right. And for like people that don’t know just in every field, like my dad’s a big publisher. He actually has the second highest score ever of like.

Micah Johnson (11:40)
It’s pretty elite.

Right.

Philip Daniel Ganz (11:58)
Of in cardiology of never winning the Nobel prize. So this is like a big thing. And also that you’re like, well, who is number one? Rain the money. It was his boss. That was number one. So I know if they were in a competition, but that’s just really funny. But what I would tell you is, so when I learned like all this story of how close my dad was, it really, the 86 paper is actually better than the 88 paper. It’s like many years later, like.

If you could redo it, they would have given it to the 86 and not the 88. But I came up with this idea because for people that don’t know, I have all these microsites or one or two page websites. What I was going to do was, you know, and I could, was try to help my dad win the Nobel prize and manipulate the process because I can locate the 3000 voters and I like with my web skills, I could do it. Okay. And I told my dad this and my baby name.

Micah Johnson (12:51)
Okay.

Philip Daniel Ganz (12:56)
And, ⁓ he, I’m like, he was like in awe that like someone would try to like help him. Right. But you know, he was there and I said, you know, finally you can retire because he still works. Like no way. Like dude, this guy 70, 76 still works full time. Like no breaks, all gas. It’s like, could retire. It’s like you’d win and you can retire. He’s like, what do you mean?

like you’d win and it’s like you could like, you know, your final dance.

He’s like, no, he’s like, you don’t get it. He’s like, it’s not about this trophy. He’s like, he’s like, it’s about helping humanity. He’s like, why would I stop helping out, you know, humanity and people if I can keep going and give back to the world? He’s like, this is, he’s like, you’re missing it with these trophies. He’s like, I’m working with the younger generation.

He’s like, I just got off of rounds. I’m training the new people that will eventually replace me to try to help out, you know, the world. He’s not even trying to help out in America or get some prize. he he said I was completely misfocused. And he’s like, if you think it’s about this, I’m like that, you know, you’re the second highest person you work for. But he’s like, it’s he’s like, it’s it’s it’s nothing. He’s like, it’s it’s it’s. ⁓

He’s like, if it wasn’t for Gemini, he’s like, you would have no idea. In fact, the other part of the story, and I had no idea either, is we’re so, who taught him, right? Is that I accidentally learned senior year of high school, and this was accidentally, that my grandfather, what inspired him is that, my grandfather actually invented the.

Swan-Ganz catheter and, ⁓ it’s the heart catheter that opens up and the heart, you know, it’s actually named after my grandfather. No way. He didn’t win the prize either, but he was the same thing. These guys, they are not trying to win any prize or do anything. They’re trying to hide it. They view these things as complete distractions. You know, have they gotten some awards along the way, but

Micah Johnson (15:13)
Mm.

Philip Daniel Ganz (15:59)
You know, I’m not sure they’d even want to they’d reluctantly pick up the fly. In fact, one of my favorite football players was Barry Sanders, and I never understood why he never wanted to celebrate anything or end zone dance or do anything like this. It’s a complete, you know, that’s how you know that Barry Sanders is the goat running back because he’s more concerns.

Micah Johnson (16:06)
Right? Right.

Philip Daniel Ganz (16:27)
About trying to win championships. Now he never did and more concerned about his teammates. Then he is about his individual alkalites, you know? And I think when you look at that. Of trying to do it, and I think, you know, just to let everyone know my, my dad did move from, you know, Boston. He was at, you know, the Brigham and then he went to University of San Francisco or became the chief.

But I think one reason why he took that job for many years is because he wanted to help out the younger generation. And he did put a set, set aside some of his personal goals. Now he’s back trying to help out the, you know, he’s still working full time. He’s working part time or whatever, but no people are like, what is it? What is it like, man? He is this laser focus trying to produce.

Micah Johnson (17:05)
Thanks.

Philip Daniel Ganz (17:24)
The best papers, the biggest inspirations, things ahead of its time. Because if you create things so great, they won’t even know. Like current society won’t know it’s great. In fact, the heart catheter, when I’ll tell people this, when it was submitted to the national ⁓ Institute of health for grants, which is a pretty big thing, right? People would say the heart catheter, it got the lowest ranking ever. Like an F minus. You’re like no way.

Yeah. And you’re like, no way. Yeah. Because people didn’t think it would be like, good. It is that this thing stinks. Right. It turned out that that was a pretty good idea. In fact, it took so long. The patent didn’t expire and there was real no money into that. You’re like, no way. Yeah. And you’re like, ⁓ probably wouldn’t be doing mortgages here. But, but it was never about that. And that’s the same thing with my dad. He’s always chasing.

Micah Johnson (18:17)
Right.

Philip Daniel Ganz (18:22)
And I’ll tell you this, to learn how to chase, you know, his brother’s the same thing. His, his, ⁓ his sister-in-law, Patricia Gans is also world renowned. Like I, I, say, no way. Yeah. They, ⁓ they also have some incredible age score and, ⁓ no way. Yeah. See the best of the best. They’re not chasing money.

And they’re not chasing records. They’re chasing like better ways to do things. They’re chasing winning, winning championships and winning championships is not a trophy. This is the difference between winners and losers. It’s chasing. Like it’s chasing great things that you can’t touch. Right. It’s not like, is this philosophical thing? And now that I see it.

They didn’t know it till this year. And that’s my dad. And you’re like, no way. And I had no idea because he wouldn’t say anything about his career or who he was. I put it in Gemini and I put his career up. And here’s the craziest story. And I emailed him and my mom. You know what my mom said?

She had no idea either.

Micah Johnson (19:47)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

Philip Daniel Ganz (19:49)
I said, how do you not know? She’s like, he didn’t tell me. So yeah. So even if it’s your son or your wife or your whatever, so imagining racking up all these awards and racking up all these points and these papers and not even you’re like, why? I said, how does he not know that he had the second highest or this or did that? And he, and he’s like, you didn’t know about the 1986 paper.

Right? You have no idea that this change, like any cardiologist would be like, yeah, 1986, a hundred percent. They would know about this, you know? In fact, it has a bigger impact. Then the catheter, but people know about the, because it’s like a thing. You can hold it up. It’s like an iPhone. Right. But the way you change the way nitric oxide changed the way it affected the body is a much bigger impact. So when you look up leadership and all this.

Micah Johnson (20:35)
Right.

Philip Daniel Ganz (20:46)
And that’s a better way. That’s, that’s more important than, than, than money. It’s more important than try to alkylates. And I think that’s why it keeps them going at 76. You’re like, how many more years? Like, do I think knowing him, you know, as long as he’s healthy. And I think that’s a big thing. He’s healthy and he’s having fun and he’s in a positive environment.

then I think he’s just gonna keep going, right? Because that’s what stopped my grandfather was the health, right? ⁓ You know, and I think that’s, yeah.

Micah Johnson (21:24)
Right. Well, it’s for most high performers, know, like they keep, you

keep going, especially when you’re doing the things that you love to do, like Shaq didn’t quit. He just stopped playing basketball. Now he does a bunch of other things. Like if you’re a high performing person, especially that championship mindset, I love the way that it’s thought about and that way that he approached it. it’s outcomes don’t happen in a vacuum, right? It could have been, that story could have turned out where he did win it, but it wouldn’t have mattered still the same because

Outcomes are the byproduct of doing other things well. Right? I say this all the time. If you want results, it’s action times time. That creates a result. Like how to create a result is not a hard thing. Do something for long enough or not do it for long enough and you’ll get a different result. But that’s how we do it. And when you realize that it comes down to living well and leading well where how are you handling that? If it’s, if it’s only about you, you’re missing the point. You’re missing really the good parts of living.

Honestly, cause it’s the connection with others. It’s being part of something bigger than yourself. It does have a tremendous impact on the way we go about living, the way we enjoy our lives, the way that honestly too, I’ve seen more people accomplish greater things living that way than the opposite. Because when you get worried about the one, then you’re stuck. Now it’s done. What are you going to do it again? Right. Like, and especially in somebody motivated people, it’s not about an outcome because those just happen.

It’s about a process. It’s about living a certain way, being a certain way where the act of that raises those around you.

Philip Daniel Ganz (23:01)
And you know what you talked about Shaq. Shaq doesn’t get enough credit of how hard he works. I’ll tell people this. If you’re in the Hall of Fame, you are a hard worker. By definition, there’s never been a Hall of Famer. In fact, what people don’t realize and look at the tape, Shaq was not the best big man on his team as a freshman in LSU. You’re like, what do mean he’s Shaq? No, Stanley Roberts was.

Stanley Roberts was a better shooter, better passer, a better defense. So what happened to Stanley Rob? In fact, Shaq has admitted this. He actually used this a lot of it in his podcast, Stanley Roberts saying, you know, I don’t know if he says, you know, he just brings them up, but Stanley Roberts did play in the NBA, but he never like really blossomed even though he, ⁓ he was the better player. In fact, this is why I think like.

You know, lot of like early bloomers fail because they, they, collect these trophies. get a big in their head. was too easy. The, the better people in life had a moment or many moments where they were either passed over or they got caught like Michael Jordan. Like I’ve had many moments where I was passed over or I something happened or whatever. Right. But it’s about a process, you know,

Micah Johnson (24:29)
Right.

Right. One thing my mentor says about that. One thing my mentor says about that is your highlight reel is because of your low light reel. That’s, that’s the reality without the low lights. You don’t get the highlights. They’re the things that force you to change, force you to become the person that can do that thing. And it’s, it’s how you handle them is everything. Like I’m, I’m way more impressed by what someone’s overcome than what they’ve accomplished hands down.

Philip Daniel Ganz (24:31)
And that’s what I tell people, you know, someone said to me,

Micah Johnson (24:59)
To overcome something required real work, competition stuff. There’s a lot of things that go into that. Some of it has nothing to do with us, but overcoming things is that’s internal work. That’s fortitude work takes guts and grit to do it.

Philip Daniel Ganz (25:14)
Totally. That’s what people don’t realize. That’s what makes people great to the ability to overcome and what you put into it. know, mean, great parents are also a big influence. Right. Look at the Olympics. Right. People want to know the highest success. Here’s facts that I like. I’m a numbers person. The most successful kids at school.

Micah Johnson (25:31)
For sure, for sure.

Philip Daniel Ganz (25:44)
Aren’t at school. They’re homeschooled. You’re like, no way. And it’s not even close. Like, what do mean? But Jimmy goes to Palm beach. Doesn’t matter. You’re like, I know what someone’s going to say. yeah. You couldn’t have been a good athlete. There’s plenty of good athletes that were like in homeschooled. You’re like, name me one. Tim Tebow. Right? Like, come on. Like, you know, there is, there is nothing to do with it. Like, because you can always still participate at the school level and

Micah Johnson (26:04)
Yeah.

Right, exactly.

Philip Daniel Ganz (26:13)
And, and, and,

and do that. And that’s really, think parents are a big influence. And I think Shaq had a good influence. His parents, Tiger Woods had good parents. mean, he kind of fell off. mean, his dad died, right? Venus Williams had good parents. You know, Micah Jordan had good parents. And then you look at the list of people that didn’t have good parents and they were like the biggest draft boss. In fact,

Micah Johnson (26:29)
Will you see the impact of it?

Philip Daniel Ganz (26:41)
If you take a list of the biggest draft boss, doesn’t matter what sport, there’s actually a common name. No parents, bad parents. Like this is like a common theme, right? Like it was like bad people around them. You were never like, like the biggest draft boss never had parents of the year. In fact, most of them didn’t even have parents. were, may have been the biggest, tallest, the fastest, but they kind of didn’t have it.

to be able to you know, succeed, right? And I think…

Micah Johnson (27:16)
Right? And at the time of life

they’re trying to man, like, cause that’s, that’s something that’s on all of us. We all come, none of us asked to be here. We all just woke up here one day and each human, especially if you’re older than 25, you got to get square with that. You got to get square with who was it that raised you? Were they great people? Awesome. If that’s your experience, awesome. If they weren’t, doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you beat yourself up with that truth.

It’s not gonna help. I didn’t come from necessarily the easiest environment. I’ve had to overcome a lot of things mentally, emotionally, physically throughout life. But the fact that you gotta get square with it and then what it shows you, my kids are having the completely opposite experience than I had. I know the environment that they need to have to prepare them, prepare their mind for them in their early 20s.

late twenties, early thirties, when life is squeezing and we’re actually growing and becoming. I mean, that’s where you’re talking about the draft bus. It ain’t just basketball that’s happening. Life is squeezing the shit out of you in your mid twenties. You don’t even know who you are at 30. Like life is just doing its thing. And if you don’t have that foundation to fall back on, that’s where you get trouble to come in. And that’s where I, you know, folks I’ve talked to you when you know that about yourself and then hard hits, you can keep from self-destructing.

And that’s what a good environment did for you anyways, was it taught you how to handle hard well. And the better you handle hard, the better life is hands down. There’s you want data. There it is. Any pay attention to people who handle hard poorly, where they fall apart, measure their life after measure people who hand it well, measure their life after. And what you’ll see is someone constantly growing and climbing and someone that just spends their life. seems like going around the same.

thing over and over and over because you just hit a stuck point. That’s why we need each other. That’s where leadership, like we’re talking about, comes in super important is connecting with people that really it’s they lead themselves. Well, we’re all got leadership responsibility. Do you lead yourself? Well, if you know how to do that, you can lead other people well, and it comes down to what you’re talking about. It’s not about me, right? If I want to make a lot of money, solve other people’s problems.

If I want to be a good dad, be a good dad, do the stuff that makes you a good dad, right? Be a good husband, be a good husband. That’s what my mentor says. You don’t get to say you’re a good husband or a good dad. Your kids do. Your wife does. There’s a proof of your life that do it. That’s all I got to worry about, right? And that’s leading myself well. If I show up in each role daily, I’ll create the life I want. Probably my favorite quote I’ve created. A good life is made by living the individual days well. Now that’s the goal.

Philip Daniel Ganz (30:04)
That is so

true. It’s the daily activities people want. You know, I’ll tell you this. We’re thinking about it next to have, do we improve our company? Right. And I’ll tell you one of the things I’m working on. So one of our competitors, and this is common, this is kept on publishing. We got this like tracker and let me explain the tracker. The tracker would basically be, you know, publish your monthly volume or your monthly, you know,

Micah Johnson (30:07)
daily.

Philip Daniel Ganz (30:34)
You’re a big producer, just produce the same people on the list all the time. Right. But this doesn’t encourage daily activities. It doesn’t encourage new people to do well. So where we’re coming up with and it’s in process is something called the karma tracker. Okay. And that’s your daily activities, not only to produce more, to be a better person. That’s how I called it. The karma tracker. You can do a little good, right?

And I think that is something that I’ve like learned about the daily activities. I just, in my style of managing where I’ve helped out a lot of people is that there’s been like three instances where my manager wanted me to fire someone much sooner within 90 days. Right. That’s what area managers want to someone 90 days, four months. And I gave them six months. I gave them nine months longer because I saw the daily activities.

Micah Johnson (31:04)
Right?

Philip Daniel Ganz (31:33)
Not every one time you get the fruits of the labor when you want it, right? Sometimes it’s caught too short and there’s nothing worse than cutting a player that could have done it for you and watching him go do it for someone else. You’re gonna give me an example. Okay. Red Sox fans, David Ortiz. Right? He was with the Minnesota Twins. He was actually caught by the Twins. Waiver wire, right?

These things have it right. Sometimes it takes a little bit longer for people to develop, find their groove. needs so much that bats. fact, you know, look at the number one great predictor for NFL quarterback success at the college level to the pros is not completion percentage. It’s not touchdowns. It is not 40 time. is what game started.

Micah Johnson (32:30)
What is it?

Mmm.

Philip Daniel Ganz (32:33)
If you have had at least two years of playing, that is actually your biggest success. In fact, if you want to see a bust, go look at players that didn’t have enough starts. Right. It just, it, not to say that they couldn’t. In fact, the last two quarterbacks that finally, that had under two starts or two years of starting that have won the Superbowls, there’s only two of them. Right. And the whole NFL.

Right. The last one was Sam Darnold. Right. So we’ll look at Sam Darnold’s career. He was cut by the Jets or traded to the Panthers. Then he after like seven years of the starts, he did well with obviously his next year to Vikings, did well. And then, then, ⁓ you know, with the Seattle finally after like seven or eight years, he had that, but maybe if he stayed with the starts.

Micah Johnson (33:04)
Right.

Philip Daniel Ganz (33:32)
The other one would be a guy named Tom Brady. Now, before, you say, he sat a year. He was a senior. did four years. Like Tom Brady was a little different, right? But it does show that when people get enough daily activities, right? That they get the practice and they didn’t skip a step. They can become great. Right. And I think the same is for business.

Micah Johnson (33:59)
Completely agree. That’s what a leader does. A good leader can see somebody doing the daily reps. And that’s all you could ever ask for. Cause that’s how life comes at us is by the day. It’s not a bunch of moves. It’s little moves for a long time. That’s where I appreciate a grownup farming because it helped me understand time in a way where if you plan to see then pitch a fit for four months, waiting it to grow, it doesn’t make it go any faster at all. At all.

You got to pull the weeds, you got to put fertilizer on it. You got to put the water on it. You got to check it, but it’s just doing its thing and you’ve got to give it long enough. But if you do it long enough, like I was saying earlier, it’s a formula action plus time equals a result. If you see the actions happening, now it’s just do them long enough and you will always, always, always get a result. And it goes both ways. Don’t exercise for 10 years and see what happens.

Right? There’s going to be a result that’s going to happen. It’s just what creates them. So I got to wrap this up, man. These are the kinds of talks I can have for a long time. Appreciate you being with me today and your insights for those that are listening in that want to learn more about you learn, want to learn more about next wave mortgage. What’s a great way for them to find you.

Philip Daniel Ganz (35:16)
Well, you could always go to nextwavemortgage.com, but give me a call, 617-529-9317, or you could send me a text, 617-529-9317. I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on Instagram, but I’m old school. If you wanna like just hang out or talk or Zoom, like I’m always willing. I never turn down a conversation.

Like I’ve always, I would never recommend that from anyone because you’re going to learn from everyone. Right. So I think sometimes in our industry, we think people are above us or below us. I never looked like that. Right. I always want real conversations. I always really want to win so we can go from there. You know,

Micah Johnson (35:45)
Love that.

Love that, man. Well, thank you for sharing. If you’re watching and listening in, check our show notes. We’ll have all of Phil’s links there and his information there. Reach out to him, touch base with him, work with professionals in the business, like we say all the time. Again, Phil, thanks for being here, man. Thanks everybody out there for being with us. We appreciate y’all. If you got value out of today’s episode, please like this episode, share it with someone else you think can get value out of it. And if you’re not a subscriber yet, you know what to do. Click that button, follow along. We’ve got more conversations coming up with operators just like Phil.

folks out there building a real business in the industry. Thanks again. We’ll see you all in next episode.